Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

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18 hours ago, Huss said:

I have been informed that it will be about six weeks before I get the camera back.  It is in the queue...

When my Nikon F6 needed its AF repaired, I got it back in five days.

I wonder if that is a new camera repair queue or the general queue? Either way in a normal world outside of the Leicaverse that would be considered unacceptable. Is it acceptable that this film scratching issue is a known problem yet they continue to sell cameras with whatever batch of the part(s) causing this (for 2+ years?)? I was looking to buy a new film M but all of this has given me pause. I'm not willing to buy an absurdly expensive anything to risk having an issue that can't quickly and easily be resolved. Yes you can always return it if you don't want to wait but why bother going through the headache. 

[lmans]

2 hours ago, archive_all said:

I wonder if that is a new camera repair queue or the general queue? Either way in a normal world outside of the Leicaverse that would be considered unacceptable. Is it acceptable that this film scratching issue is a known problem yet they continue to sell cameras with whatever batch of the part(s) causing this (for 2+ years?)? I was looking to buy a new film M but all of this has given me pause. I'm not willing to buy an absurdly expensive anything to risk having an issue that can't quickly and easily be resolved. Yes you can always return it if you don't want to wait but why bother going through the headache. 

Don’t read more into this forum post than is needed. Essentially a ‘few’ people have turned you off by complaining about ‘true’ issues but in no way can one extrapolate a ‘few issues’ to the entire Leica production line. 

My point, ….as I attempted to respond to them with only being put off/down. Think for yourself… be realistic. Don’t be chased away by a continuous negative rant from a few. 

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[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, archive_all said:

I wonder if that is a new camera repair queue or the general queue? Either way in a normal world outside of the Leicaverse that would be considered unacceptable. Is it acceptable that this film scratching issue is a known problem yet they continue to sell cameras with whatever batch of the part(s) causing this (for 2+ years?)? I was looking to buy a new film M but all of this has given me pause. I'm not willing to buy an absurdly expensive anything to risk having an issue that can't quickly and easily be resolved. Yes you can always return it if you don't want to wait but why bother going through the headache. 

Are you looking for someone to tell you what to do?
If you want to shoot 35mm film you have a few options:

• Buy a new Leica.
• Buy a Lomography, Kodak, Ilford cheap camera. Are you sure they won't scratch your film? Would it matter if they did? 
• Buy a used camera, one of the zillions out there, all of which could have faults.
• Don't shoot 35mm film.

Your call.
Sorted it for you.

Now, what other life choices would you like us to make for you?

[BradS]

6 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

.... From research, I have found that most consumer products seem to have an acceptable failure rate of 2% for major problems that make the item unusable ...

 

It depends, of course, on the production volume and producer's cost.

High volume (millions a day) production would never tolerate 2% failure rate for an item that cost $1 to produce. Same is true for production volume of 1000's a day where the producer's cost is in the 10's of thousands.  Leica, with relatively low volume and relatively modest cost, is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. They might very well accept a 2% failure rate....that's 100 failures in every 5000 made.

[Huss]

For all those claiming that defective Leicas are super dooper rare.. ask yourself one question.

why would it take six weeks to repair one?  Why is the repair queue so long?  Could it be… that’s because there are so many defective Leicas waiting for repair?  Or, and I’m sure this is the excuse the leica-bois will give, it’s because there is only one dood there, and he works half days  two days a week.  And takes one week off every month.

The last Leica I bought new was the M9 (ME version).  When the sensor failed on that one under warranty - and that model camera basically had a 100% sensor failure rate - it took four months for the repair.  Perhaps I should be happy that I have been quoted six weeks vs four months?

[lmans]

9 minutes ago, Huss said:

For all those claiming that defective Leicas are super dooper rare.. ask yourself one question.

why would it take six weeks to repair one?  Why is the repair queue so long?  Could it be… that’s because there are so many defective Leicas waiting for repair?  Or, and I’m sure this is the excuse the leica-bois will give, it’s because there is only one dood there, and he works half days  two days a week.  And takes one week off every month.

The last Leica I bought new was the M9 (ME version).  When the sensor failed on that one under warranty - and that model camera basically had a 100% sensor failure rate - it took four months for the repair.  Perhaps I should be happy that I have been quoted six weeks vs four months?

I would demand a refund and purchase a used OM1. Even if a CLA is needed… you could get one , plus any Zuiko lens you want, if not a complete lineup of, and have money for many beers to drown out your Leica woes. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by lmans

[Huss]

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8 minutes ago, lmans said:

I would demand a refund and purchase a used OM1. Even if a CLA is needed… you could get one , plus any Zuiko lens you want, if not a complete lineup of, and have money for many beers to drown out your Leica woes. 

No woes, why would I want your suggestion when I have perfectly working M3, MP, M-A, M5, M7?
 

but i do notice you completely ignored my question.  Why on earth is the wait for Leica repair so long?

[wattsy]

22 minutes ago, Huss said:

why would it take six weeks to repair one?  Why is the repair queue so long?  Could it be… that’s because there are so many defective Leicas waiting for repair?  Or, and I’m sure this is the excuse the leica-bois will give, it’s because there is only one dood there, and he works half days  two days a week.  And takes one week off every month.

When one of my M-As went back to Germany for service in (I think) 2016, I was informed by a reliable contact at Leica UK that there was actually only one person in Wetzlar doing film camera repairs. And (you may think I'm making this up) I was told he was working part-time. 😂 That, of course, was then. I have no idea what the situation is today but I can imagine (at least hope) that they have trained up some additional staff during the last 6 years.

[archive_all]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Are you looking for someone to tell you what to do?
If you want to shoot 35mm film you have a few options:

• Buy a new Leica.
• Buy a Lomography, Kodak, Ilford cheap camera. Are you sure they won't scratch your film? Would it matter if they did? 
• Buy a used camera, one of the zillions out there, all of which could have faults.
• Don't shoot 35mm film.

Your call.
Sorted it for you.

Now, what other life choices would you like us to make for you?

No, not at all. Actually, I think I stated an answer even though it was a rhetorical question and I wasn't looking for advice but thanks a ton for your time and effort. I also won't defend the brand in this circumstance. Let's face it, for these prices to have to send a brand new camera out for repair with a 3 month wait is ridiculous and it's not like they have in stock units that can be exchanged. I feel for @Huss's situation.

[Mute-on]

1 hour ago, Mooshoepork said:

Maybe buy used from a time when Leica knew how to make cameras? Plenty of CLA’d M6s floating around. 

An entirely sensible suggestion. 
 

Leica made its name producing film cameras, and created a highly experienced, and expert workforce that knew the products, and how to perfect them. Now these people are retired, and those making the film cameras have to be trained to do so, without the benefit of a continuum of knowledge from decades of experience. 
 

I perfectly understand the desire to have a new production Leica film M, on the assumption that it represents the most refined and perfected iteration of the film cameras they have been producing for many decades, but the reality is that era is over.
 

My personal opinion is that it ended shortly after the M8 was launched. However in some ways, the M2 / M3 era was the peak of Film M production (although it is claimed the M4 was the last of the adjust-to-fit production Leicas - in my experience it is not quite up to the standard of the M2). 

It would be nice to believe that Leica can recapture its film camera heyday, and perhaps it will, but it seems there is any awfully long way to go.

If I am overwhelmed by the desire for more film Leica M bodies, I won’t be looking at anything after the original M4. Regardless, as with everything mechanical, there are compromises and risks of failure. 

[Steve Ricoh]

9 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

The following is an observation so if you are hoping for something useful or helpful, the old movie quote is appropriate..."Move along, there is nothing to see here..." 😉

Every product, from screwdrivers to airplanes, has a failure rate that is considered acceptable by manufacturers and, if appropriate, government regulations.  As an example, it may come as a surprise but there is an acceptable "failure rate" in the air traffic control system.  Yep, if you are assuming that the number of acceptable collisions is zero, you would be wrong.  😱   

But don't worry, that particular rate is EXTREMELY low.   For aircraft flying across the North Atlantic the "acceptable failure rate" calculates to one air traffic control-caused collision every 150 years!  (No, I'm not making this up or basing it on some internet pundit's article. I spent 33 years in that particular field of aviation and for the last 10 years was part of the US delegation to an annual international meeting in which the specific collision risk figures/calculations were part of the agenda/discussion).  

    Now that we have reminded ourselves that everything can fail, let's shift from the vanishingly low chances of falling out of the sky over the ocean to the important topic of M6 film scratching.🤔

The 'failure rate' for the new M6 is difficult for us to determine because we have no idea how many new M6's have been produced so far AND how many of them are scratching film or are otherwise defective.  From research I have found that most consumer products seem to have an acceptable failure rate of 2% for major problems that make the item unusable and around 4% for other issues that may be annoying but still allow the product to function correctly. 

I would expect that returned products in the 2% category would be a higher priority for repair than one in the 4% category.  IMO an M6 with a cosmetic issue would fit in the 4% but scratching film SHOULD (IMO) make it unusable, placing it in the 2% category.  However, someone in marketing or accounting could argue that the film-scratcher still "functions correctly" so they might direct it to the slower 4% queue for repair.  OTOH, at Leica there may be only one queue and all repairs, regardless of 'severity' are simply taken in the order they arrive.  IOW, no triage-like evaluation.

Leica, not being all that large compared to say, Nikon, I would assume their repair capability is considerably less.  Huss noted his Nikon F6's five day turn-around where Leica seems to use a similar number but in weeks instead of days!  😳

Hmm...maybe if film had a kevlar base...🤣

 

 

 

 

 

 

If memory serves me correctly, but it’s some time back, death for manned aircraft has an acceptance level of 1 in 10 ^7 flying hours.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Steve Ricoh

[lmans]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

No woes, why would I want your suggestion when I have perfectly working M3, MP, M-A, M5, M7?
 

but i do notice you completely ignored my question.  Why on earth is the wait for Leica repair so long?

I can’t answer that Huss…. Frankly it makes no sense🥲
 

You sent to Germany?

wasn’t Leica America ‘moving’ /changing buildings ? Not sure if move completed or still in process but perhaps a backlog of basic repairs and bled over to Europe?

Hard to believe only one person in repair  dept. Maybe only one person assigned to M6’s?

Either way…. Any way… yes you got screwed. Good luck

Edited December 31, 2022 by lmans

[Mikep996]

"Leica made its name producing film cameras, and created a highly experienced, and expert workforce that knew the products, and how to perfect them. Now these people are retired, and those making the film cameras have to be trained to do so, without the benefit of a continuum of knowledge from decades of experience. "

I would agree with that statement if Nikon started producing film cameras but Leica has been producing film cameras all along so it seems to me that they DO have an ongoing continuum of knowledge about making film cameras.  

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Mikep996

[wattsy]

9 hours ago, lmans said:

Hard to believe only one person in repair  dept. Maybe only one person assigned to M6’s?

One person repairing film cameras, not one person in the whole repair 'department'. You can believe what you like but that is what the Leica repair people told me in 2016. I didn't complain, I considered the estimated service time of a month or two okay in the circumstances and I was given a loaner camera to use so I wasn't particularly disadvantaged.

[wattsy]

9 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

Leica has been producing film cameras all along so it seems to me that they DO have an ongoing continuum of knowledge about making film cameras.

You would imagine so but we don't know for certain that there has been an uninterrupted "continuum of knowledge". During the last 15 years, film camera manufacture at Leica will have dwindled to historically low production numbers and then started to ramp up again after the introduction of the M-A. We don't know whether, in that time, Leica have had periods within which they have had problems retaining experienced staff and/or introducing newly trained employees.

[Huss]

8 hours ago, wattsy said:

You would imagine so but we don't know for certain that there has been an uninterrupted "continuum of knowledge". During the last 15 years, film camera manufacture at Leica will have dwindled to historically low production numbers and then started to ramp up again after the introduction of the M-A. We don't know whether, in that time, Leica have had periods within which they have had problems retaining experienced staff and/or introducing newly trained employees.

If Leica had an issue with experienced staff, they should have paused production until the quality came back on line.  Instead of selling defective product.

But.. I don’t think it is an assembly issue, I think it is a parts supplier issue but Leica still should be checking the parts used to make sure they are acceptable.  For example, the new Ford Bronco had a leaking roof.  An outside supplier provided those roof panels.  Once that came to light, they stopped delivery until those roofs were replaced.   Leica has had batches of scratching cameras.  They should be doing the same thing, but I think they don’t because the avg consumer hardly ever uses the camera and doesnt pay attention to the results.  They just want a shiny new Leica.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Huss

[lmans]

32 minutes ago, Huss said:

 the avg consumer hardly ever uses the camera and doesnt pay attention to the results.  They just want a shiny new Leica.

This….. to me is pretty realistic. This is more true of film cameras than digital as film looks enticing to many but then can’t either figure it out, or tire of film, or can’t focus or exposure etc…  BUT… the camera sure looks good on the shelf:)

[Huss]

37 minutes ago, lmans said:

This….. to me is pretty realistic. This is more true of film cameras than digital as film looks enticing to many but then can’t either figure it out, or tire of film, or can’t focus or exposure etc…  BUT… the camera sure looks good on the shelf:)

Yeah, I think the avg user - no matter the brand - is just happy to get something!  Not realizing how good it could be.  But for many lower quality results are a success because those flaws - scratches, dust, murky exposure, poor focus - is the attraction after their technically perfect Iphone pics!  It's what identifies the images to them as film images.

[lmans]

16 minutes ago, Huss said:

Yeah, I think the avg user - no matter the brand - is just happy to get something!  Not realizing how good it could be.  But for many lower quality results are a success because those flaws - scratches, dust, murky exposure, poor focus - is the attraction after their technically perfect Iphone pics!  It's what identifies the images to them as film images.

Well I was just out shooting with my Barnacks and got all u mentioned and love it:)!!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Mikep996]

It's interesting that many of us that grew up in the film era worked hard to ELIMINATE grain and other flaws from prints.   Nobody wanted grain unless it was a specific "artistic" thing.  There was film and developers that essentially made grain invisible in a print viewed from a normal viewing distance.  Digital essentially eliminated grain which most of us saw as a good thing.  Now,  people want grainy/flawed images so they "look like film," even though that wasn't typical of decent film images/prints.

Strange...🤔

Edited December 31, 2022 by Mikep996