Firmware version 4 available for CL

[gteague]

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i severely underestimated the worth of this firmware update, i now admit. it's given new life to my cl. the digital zoom was enough, but now i've re-configured my camera to take advantage of the new screen. but the real value is that the teleconverter feature has made 3 lenses out of each one of mine. my 50/2 is now a 75/100/125/2 and i just went out and shot with my tl 23/2 and it's now a 35/45/60/2. 

i took the same subject as yesterday with the 50mm to show the zoom magnification and this is shot at f2 as well and the 23 holds up surprisingly well in the sharpness department compared with the legendary 50 summicron.

oh, i also took my first panorama. it was a total failure. i'll have to practice my pivot speed. it caught me by surprise by encompassing a much greater angle than i expected, but i'm used to take my panos in the portrait mode where they turn out to be about 90º instead of the 120-150º of a horizontal panorama. 

well, the forum is totally refusing to let me upload images today. i guess the 3x 1920px images i uploaded yesterday used up my quota for the year. <sigh> 

Edited August 23, 2020 by gteague

[jaapv]

Yes, the digital zoom is clearly meant for users who don't post-process.

But what about your remark about your image uploads? I don't find any refusal by the forum.  and plenty of members are posting in the photoforums and image threads. There is no quota. 

 

On 8/23/2020 at 8:08 PM, ramarren said:

Sorry, but this just isn't true and sounds like a lot of complaining to me. I have three-four editing apps on my system and they've all been easy to configure and learn. 

G

Indeed Most editors offer a choice of schemes from white-on-black to black-on-white. 

 

On 8/23/2020 at 8:59 PM, gteague said:

yet, i wanted to do the simplest thing imaginable which doesn't even take much quality--to post 3 images so you guys could compare the magnification of the new digital zoom feature. and i was unable to do that and it seems i can't without jumping through hoops although it allowed me to do exactly this about 2-3 days ago. what changed in the meantime?  this is some sort of artificial barrier which, although perhaps necessary to the running of the forum, is user hostile. of course, the forum is free, so it's uncharitable to complain, but the simple fact remains.

do this simple experiment. go to facebook or twitter or (maybe?) instagram (although i despise it) and start a post. now drag any 3 images onto that window. any size, edited or filtered or hdr'd or not edited onto your post window. did it work seamlessly? of course it did. and i see no reason a photo forum should be harder or more opaque than that. 

/guy

Nothing changed-you’ll have to accept user error I fear. As for your examples, those sites use automatic resizing algorithms which impact image quality. 

 

There is no quota to the number of image posts- that is what I told you.i also explained max image size and max file size.  Why don’t you use the “choose files “  link? 

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[nicci78]

If interested in data for lens selection. This is for you. Otherwise, please ignore this post.

Please note, that 1.3x crop mode is 1.25x in reality. And that 1.7x is 1.79x real. Maths is made with correct value. 

53mm is the rounding of 52.5mm the real focal length of 50mm lenses.

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited August 24, 2020 by nicci78

[gteague]

great chart, thanks! but are you saying that the 50mm leica m is in fact a 53mm and not a 50mm? that doesn't sound like leica but i guess it's possible they rounded off. two exif editors both said that the 50mm is effectively a 75mm on the cl, as far as magnification is concerned and a 'real' 50mm on the s1. 

i thought about it a little bit and although i'm not very knowledgeable about sensors, perhaps the cl's sensor size factors in and lenses don't come out 'even' and this escapes the notice of the exif. just a wild guess though.  

/guy

Edited August 24, 2020 by gteague

[jaapv]

It has been this way since the 1920-ies. Lens focal lengths have always been rounded off. Not just with Leica, but with all lens makers. It is fairly irrelevant, as the focal length varies with focusing anyway.

 

And if you want to be really precise, the f-stop on the lens is always faster than the actual lens speed, as it is a mathematical value based on nominal focal length and lens diameter. The real lens speed, the T-stop (used in cine) is always slower due to transmission losses.

I must confess that I don't get what you are trying to say in your last sentence.

[lct]

Not sure to understand... 50mm Leica lenses are rounded off at 50 aren't they? Otherwise exif data say 50, not 53, why would they? I must be mssing something here... I have no experience with TL or SL lenses though.

[jaapv]

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Yes they are called 50 mm lenses- but the precise focal length is about 52.5 mm at infinity..

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Yes they are called 50 mm lenses- but the precise focal length is about 52.5 mm at infinity..

Exactly. Leica M lenses have tiny numbers engraved on the side of focusing scale. Add them to the marketing name of the lens to get the real focal length. 
So 50mm M lenses got 25 engraved on the side. So add 2.5 to 50, you got 52.5mm

Another exemple : 90mm got 00 engraved. So they are real 90mm focal length. At infinity of course. 
 

Weird numbers ? Not that so. At the time focal length choice were made upon simple math : 3.5cm lens multiply by 1.5 you get 5.25cm rounded to a simpler 5cm 
3x0.7cm = 2.1cm   
4x0.7cm = 2.8cm    
5x0.7cm = 3.5cm    
3x2.8cm = 8.5cm   
etc...

 

Very simple math were needed for lens focal length selection. Remember no computer at the time. At least not electronic one. Just rooms full of very clever women making calculation by hand... Their job title ? Computer...

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

Not only that, but there is production variation, so the number on the side of the barrel indicated the measured focal length of the individual lens..

[pop]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

Yes they are called 50 mm lenses- but the precise focal length is about 52.5 mm at infinity..

Which are "they"? Leica makes quite a number of different lens models, all having the same nominative focal lenghts. Some models (not copies) have focal lengths of exactly 50mm, others (usually) have values like 52.3, and so on. Older models had, of course, quite some sample variations. Strangely enough, only a few of the data sheets of the current M lenses show actual focal lenghts, others don't.

And the focal length of a lens remains constant and independent of the distance they're used at, unless it has floating elements.

[jaapv]

"They" refers to the post I was responding to, right above the one you quote.

Older individual lenses have varying numbers engraved, corresponding to variations in focal length.

I'm afraid that the actual focal length of a lens system gets longer the closer you focus, by the simple  extension of the lens

[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

"They" refers to the post I was responding to, right above the one you quote.

I'm afraid that the actual focal length of a lens system gets longer the closer you focus, by the simple physical extension of the lens

Not according to Newton! If extending the lens simply moves the lens body in and out, the focal length (f) is unchanged: it is the distance to the subject (u) and focal plane (v) that change.

1/u + 1/v = 1/f

See? I wrote that without looking up my O level text books. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

Nikon disagrees with Newton, then. Bolding mine.

Quote

[...] a calculation of an optical distance from the point where light rays converge to form a sharp image of an object to the digital sensor or 35mm film at the focal plane in the camera. The focal length of a lens is determined when the lens is focused at infinity.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/a/tips-and-techniques/understanding-focal-length.html

 

And here you have focus breathing explained in more detail for lenses with internal focusing, which is more complex than the simple focal length extension for classically focusing lenses.

https://photographylife.com/focus-breathing

Any M user is  - or should be- aware of the change in framing at various distances when moving from infinity, caused by this phenomenon.

 

[pop]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Nikon disagrees with Newton, then. Bolding mine.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/a/tips-and-techniques/understanding-focal-length.html

The bolded text is correct, after a fashion. The focal length is the distance between the lens and the image when it projects the image of an object at infinity. In German, it's called "Brennweite" because the paper starts to burn when you project an image of the sun on paper.

[jaapv]

Indeed, thanks. And the distance between lens and film/sensor/paper gets larger when you focus the lens closer.

[nicci78]

Or course 50mm 52.5mm did not really matter. 
It is just that Q & Q2 50mm crop is equivalent to 50mm focal length exactly. So it is a tad wider than typical 52.5mm lens (aka 50mm in marketing terms) 
Not a problem at all. Just a fact. 

However 35mm ans 75mm crop are accurate. You get same field as real 35 and 75mm lenses  

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

36 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Nikon disagrees with Newton, then. Bolding mine.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/a/tips-and-techniques/understanding-focal-length.html

 

And here you have focus breathing explained in more detail for lenses with internal focusing, which is more complex than the simple focal length extension for classically focusing lenses.

https://photographylife.com/focus-breathing

Any M user is  - or should be- aware of the change in framing at various distances when moving from infinity, caused by this phenomenon.

 

 

I suspect Nikon is simplifying for its audience, as Pop implies. The statement is true-ish (better expressed as: "With the lens at infinity, the focal length can be determined from the distance between the lens and the sensor"), but the focal length still doesn't change when not at infinity (unless internally focused).

I'm sure all L lenses are internally focused anyway - perhaps not the 18mmTL.

[nicci78]

Even tiny TL 18mm is internally focused. 

[jaapv]

8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

I suspect Nikon is simplifying for its audience, as Pop implies. The statement is true-ish (better expressed as: "With the lens at infinity, the focal length can be determined from the distance between the lens and the sensor"), but the focal length still doesn't change when not at infinity (unless internally focused).

I'm sure all L lenses are internally focused anyway - perhaps not the 18mmTL.

I do suspect that we are talking at cross-purposes. Focal length is calculated and defined at infinity, which is the convention. Obviously that cannot change.
But if you calculate focal length at any other focal distance it will be different which is what I am saying.
It is quite relevant, as I mentioned, for rangefinder users because the change will affect the angle of view and thus the framing.
With the Q, using electronic framelines, the effect will be invisible, as any -if any- focus breathing by the lens will be compensated by software.
On an EVF camera,, with WYSIWYG viewing it is of no interest.

I don't know whether the CL lenses are compensated (see the other article I linked to).

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[pop]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

But if you calculate focal length at any other focal distance it will be different which is what I am saying.

For this case a different term is used. In German it's called Bildweite, for English my dictionary says Principal distance or length. The principal distance not only governs the field of view (the angle, that is) but also the aperture ratio. That becomes, of course, quite prominent for long extensions.

Even small differences between actual focal lengths (vs. nominal ones) can become significant under special circumstances. The use on the BEOON device at imaging scales around 1:1 comes to mind, when the BEOON is too tall for 50mm lenses while it's perfect for lenses with focal lengths >52mm.