M10R

[Ko.Fe.]

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5 minutes ago, sblutter said:

 

I'm sorry, but to me it looks like you are making "use photoshop" as excuse for lousy Leica's R&D. It is 2020 and many, if not most cameras makers have dust reducing and not just JPEG1 files size support in-camera. I don't even have Photoshop, it is waste of time for me. I spend my time for image taking, not for unnecessary sw manipulations, just because particular camera manufacturer R&D is archaic. 

"She/he", btw, is university educated motion pictures specialist. Tarkovsky came to run classes then he was student.    

[sblutter]

1 minute ago, sblutter said:

7 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Great powers come with great responsibilities ... More MP sensor, bigger and faster SD cards, less space in SSD, at least for me. As said above, the question is: Is 40-47 MP necessary? I don't think so. It could help for some, it could be a limitation for others.
With 24MP, you can print large sizes and do almost whatever you want. If you are printing a building size print for Chanel, you maybe need a Medium format because the M system is so for you. For the rest, there is MasterCard LOL. 
But for the M system, most essential appliances, it's more than enough. IMO. People can say that with a huge file size can crop like a crazy? Great. I answer them kindly, learn, and find a way to have a fabulous shot in-camera, not in PP. I'm not a purist, but I agree in a certain way with Elliott Erwitt: "Digital manipulation kills photography." It's about making slight adjustments and not to recreate another picture from a picture.

That is, IMHO, what the M system essence is about. My approach to see my M10 is to have a film camera with the files downloaded on my computer (because it's fast and free). Again, I hope the M10R improves some features, and don't affect that essence. 

Good vibes, as always

--

D.,

You get it.  I have been an M guy from my teens - a long time ago.  I love how the form fits human hands and eyes to the point you don't even realize you're holding a camera - because its a part of you.  Results from different cameras assuming the exact same settings, lens etc are comparable.   We've all seen amazing, wonderful photos from all around the world from what we would call lousy or outdated equipment - proving human artistry is key.  Equipment is just tools.

 

 

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[sblutter]

2 minutes ago, sblutter said:

 

 

5 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I'm sorry, but to me it looks like you are making "use photoshop" as excuse for lousy Leica's R&D. It is 2020 and many, if not most cameras makers have dust reducing and not just JPEG1 files size support in-camera. I don't even have Photoshop, it is waste of time for me. I spend my time for image taking, not for unnecessary sw manipulations, just because particular camera manufacturer R&D is archaic. 

"She/he", btw, is university educated motion pictures specialist. Tarkovsky came to run classes then he was student.    

I love shooting with my aging M240 and keep the sensor clean.  My main use of PS is getting colors, contrast etc the way I want them in print form.  Coordinating the capture, monitor, printer, ink, ambient humidity and paper varies from image to image.  It can be very tedious but when the print is 'right' to my eye, oh what a feeling!

[Boojay]

8 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I put up a post a little while ago asking what is Leica up to with no announcements in the past six months.  I thought a CL with IBIS would be a natural use of their time, but that would also need dealing with a new chip.  An M10-R with just a new chip, with many electronic similarities to the M10-M 40 MPx chip, would bring in more money and involve less risk, so I guess we GAS sufferers will have an M10-R for this summer and pine for that CL+ for Christmas at the earliest.

Do you really think there is a possibility of M10R for the summer.  I seriously doubt it given the situation following/during Covid 19 and its effect on manufacturing and parts availability.

 This for example:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/06/07/leica-m10-monochrom-availability.aspx/

It's a given that even without the current situation when Leica announces a new body it generally means months of waiting before it arrives on the shelves.  

I'm not feeling a Gas attack as such but having recently lost my M10 to the river and my insurance company deciding to re-imburse rather than replace, I'm looking at my spare M10 batteries, Vis 020, case etc and just wondering whether to replace now or wait a while. 

 

 

 

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Great powers come with great responsibilities ... More MP sensor, bigger and faster SD cards, less space in SSD, at least for me. As said above, the question is: Is 40-47 MP necessary? I don't think so. It could help for some, it could be a limitation for others.
With 24MP, you can print large sizes and do almost whatever you want. If you are printing a building size print for Chanel, you maybe need a Medium format because the M system is so for you. For the rest, there is MasterCard LOL. 
But for the M system, most essential appliances, it's more than enough. IMO. People can say that with a huge file size can crop like a crazy? Great. I answer them kindly, learn, and find a way to have a fabulous shot in-camera, not in PP. I'm not a purist, but I agree in a certain way with Elliott Erwitt: "Digital manipulation kills photography." It's about making slight adjustments and not to recreate another picture from a picture.

That is, IMHO, what the M system essence is about. My approach to see my M10 is to have a film camera with the files downloaded on my computer (because it's fast and free). Again, I hope the M10R improves some features, and don't affect that essence. 

Good vibes, as always

I agree. The simplistc M10 form factor and UI is very pleasing for a modern day 2020 digital camera. From what I can determine via the rumored M10-R photos posted, the M10 form factor remains the same.

Personally, for the M10-R, I am not interested in just more MPs, I am hoping CMOSIS/ STMicroelectronics were able to squeeze even more DR out of the "rumored" new 40MP M10-R sensor. For perhaps some indications of the M10-R sensor in the M10-M measurements here (scroll down to lab tests) https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/reviews/leica-m10-monochrom-review

"Despite 'only' packing a 40MP sensor, the M10 Monochrom manages to resolve an equal amount of fine detail to the current crop of 47MP cameras, and produces marginally clearer images at its maximum sensitivity." 👍

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"The M10 Monochrom's dynamic range is good, mostly matching its Leica SL2 stablemate. However it's a little disappointing that dynamic range isn't even better given the camera's bias towards contrast over colour."

Edited June 28, 2020 by LBJ2

[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, sblutter said:

 

I love shooting with my aging M240 and keep the sensor clean.  My main use of PS is getting colors, contrast etc the way I want them in print form.  Coordinating the capture, monitor, printer, ink, ambient humidity and paper varies from image to image.  It can be very tedious but when the print is 'right' to my eye, oh what a feeling!

I once read interview with real street photog. Very good pictures.

He has no PS, just LR and PE. I did the same and it works great for all of my needs.

My pictures gets published, printed.

I’m familiar with sensor cleaning, dry and wet. I used it for 2005 released DSLR. But making cameras without dust reduction in 2020 is just been lame.

[farnz]

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44 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

"Despite 'only' packing a 40MP sensor, the M10 Monochrom manages to resolve an equal amount of fine detail to the current crop of 47MP cameras, and produces marginally clearer images at its maximum sensitivity."

Not to pour cold water on the M10M but this is comparing apples with oranges.  The M10M has no Bayer Matrix and therefore does not need to put the sensor out put through an interpolation/demosaicing process because each photodiode is represented 1-to-1 in the DNG.  This will inevitably produce finer resolution than a sensor with a Bayer Matrix.

Pete.

[onasj]

54 minutes ago, Boojay said:

Do you really think there is a possibility of M10R for the summer.  I seriously doubt it given the situation following/during Covid 19 and its effect on manufacturing and parts availability.

 This for example:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/06/07/leica-m10-monochrom-availability.aspx/

It's a given that even without the current situation when Leica announces a new body it generally means months of waiting before it arrives on the shelves.  

I'm not feeling a Gas attack as such but having recently lost my M10 to the river and my insurance company deciding to re-imburse rather than replace, I'm looking at my spare M10 batteries, Vis 020, case etc and just wondering whether to replace now or wait a while. 

Not just this summer... maybe next week or the following week!  Who was it that made a bet with me about the M10R being released in 2020?

[LBJ2]

27 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I once read interview with real street photog. Very good pictures.

He has no PS, just LR and PE. I did the same and it works great for all of my needs.

My pictures gets published, printed.

I’m familiar with sensor cleaning, dry and wet. I used it for 2005 released DSLR. But making cameras without dust reduction in 2020 is just been lame.

Something to consider: As we all know naturally dust is all around us, even when we can't see it. The Leica M10 shutter does remains down/closed protecting the sensor cover glass when not firing the shutter. I personally think Leica has also implemented some sort of antistatic coating/tech on the sensor glass cover or in the sensor itself. Leica is not clear on this approach other than stating “we have done something with the sensor design which makes [dust] less visible, less of a problem than before.” 

Leica is clear however why they haven't implemented an electronic sensor cleaning system in the M10. “There is no electronic cleaning system there because there is not enough space.”

https://camerajabber.com/leica-confident-dust-less-problem-m10/

"One of the problems associated with an interchangeable lens system with no mirror is an increased likelihood of dust getting to the sensor.

This seemed to be particularly problematic for previous M digital rangefinders, such as the M9 and the M Typ 240.

However, speaking to Camera Jabber during a trip to the Leica HQ in Wetzlar, Germany, the product management team responsible for the M10 believes that the new sensor inside the camera should tackle that issue.

Some have questioned why there’s no electronic sensor cleaning system, such as we see in plenty of other cameras – especially when it has been noted to be a problem in the past.

Slim-line

Jesko Oeynhausen, product manager for camera systems, said: “There is no electronic cleaning system there because there is not enough space.”

One of the key improvements, and key facts about the camera that Leica is keen to celebrate, is how they have managed to slim down the design to bring it in line with the size of classic analogue M cameras.

Confident that the new design wouldn’t present the same kind of problems as previous cameras, Oeynhausen continued, “we have done something with the sensor design which makes [dust] less visible, less of a problem than before.”

It will be interesting to see if users report the same kind of dust issues – some have gone so far as to suggest that older M digital cameras needed to be sent away for sensor cleaning every few weeks."

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by LBJ2

[onasj]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

Personally, for the M10-R, I am not interested in just more MPs, I am hoping CMOSIS/ STMicroelectronics were able to squeeze even more DR out of the "rumored" new 40MP M10-R sensor. For perhaps some indications of the M10-R sensor in the M10-M measurements here (scroll down to lab tests) https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/reviews/leica-m10-monochrom-review

"Despite 'only' packing a 40MP sensor, the M10 Monochrom manages to resolve an equal amount of fine detail to the current crop of 47MP cameras, and produces marginally clearer images at its maximum sensitivity." 👍

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

"The M10 Monochrom's dynamic range is good, mostly matching its Leica SL2 stablemate. However it's a little disappointing that dynamic range isn't even better given the camera's bias towards contrast over colour."

The Digital Camera Review measurements are not consistent with the DR measurements of Bill Claff, linked below.  Like just about everyone who knows Bill, I would trust the accuracy of his results above those of many others. Bill's findings are that throughout the ISO range of the M10M (160 to 100,000), it is the best of the four cameras in this comparison in terms of photographic dynamic range (PDR), often 2-fold better than the Nikon Z7 and Panasonic S1R, and 4-fold better than the SL2.  My sense from shooting the M10M, SL2, and Z7 is fairly consistent with Bill's measurements.  Indeed, the only cameras I've shot that have a noticeably better DR than the M10M are the Phase One IQ3 and IQ4 (granted, both are color cameras, with a large 54x40 mm medium-format Sony BSI sensor).

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M10 MONOCHROM,Leica SL2,Nikon Z 7,Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R

Edited June 28, 2020 by onasj

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 hours ago, Boojay said:

Do you really think there is a possibility of M10R for the summer.  I seriously doubt it given the situation following/during Covid 19 and its effect on manufacturing and parts availability.

 This for example:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/06/07/leica-m10-monochrom-availability.aspx/

It's a given that even without the current situation when Leica announces a new body it generally means months of waiting before it arrives on the shelves.  

I'm not feeling a Gas attack as such but having recently lost my M10 to the river and my insurance company deciding to re-imburse rather than replace, I'm looking at my spare M10 batteries, Vis 020, case etc and just wondering whether to replace now or wait a while. 

Leica rumors thinks the announcement will be in a few weeks.  The changes in the camera from the M10-P seem to be modest.  Just a new chip, with a European source, i suspect.  No change in the radios, no BlueTooth, apparently.  And Jono Slack has recently been posting pictures in the Leica Meet section of Facebook without saying what camera he took 'em with.  I'd wait a few weeks.

[Jeff S]

57 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Just a new chip, with a European source, i suspect.  

As Nicci explained months ago, cut from same wafer as S3 and M10 Monochrom.  Just as the S007 yielded the M240. And the latest Monochrom and M10-R apparently passed under the same certification... so same sensor, with Bayer array.

Jeff

[wlaidlaw]

Whenever the M10R arrives, I am #1 in the queue at my preferred dealer. I suspect it will need to be sent to France, as I am going there in 10 days time. I was using my M240 last weekend for the first time for a while, inside a quite dark building and did not have a particularly fast lens on it (18mm/f3.8 SEM). It was quite noticeable how much its low light performance lags behind the CL and SL, which are the digital cameras I have been using more recently. It did remind me however, how much I like the precision of rangefinder focus, having been using MF SLR film cameras for the last few weeks. The R9 or Leicaflex SL2 with their very bright VF's are not bad but my Rolleiflex 3003 with its odd focusing system (diagonal split image and very coarse micro prisms) allied to not being the world's brightest viewfinder, makes focusing the 28-105 Rolleinar zoom, more guesswork than one might like. You also get tired holding it up with its weird form factor and over 2kg of weight (must be the world's heaviest 35mm camera).

Wilson

[bags27]

I have some confidence in the timing of the announcement. Peter was properly chagrined over the "C-M" (either a small SL2 or Q2 with exchangeable lenses) debacle, so likely more careful this time.

I can't help but think that the M11 is in the works for 18-24 months from now. I suspect it will be somewhat of a departure, and I don't necessarily believe denials of an EVF or IBIS. The M can never have autofocus or better weather resistance, so, for what they charge for it, they will need to add value somehow besides just a denser sensor. 

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, bags27 said:

I have some confidence in the timing of the announcement. Peter was properly chagrined over the "C-M" (either a small SL2 or Q2 with exchangeable lenses) debacle, so likely more careful this time.

 

Right after that debacle Peter was very confident that the SL2 would be announced before the start of 2019, before the Panasonic S1.  He then doubled down , as he did with the C-M, saying that it would surely arrive in June, 2019.  He missed that too, by another 6 months. 
 

He might be on target with this prediction, but he first wrote last week that the M/10-R would share the sensor with the Q2/SL2, despite (I think) reporting earlier that the new Monochrom and M10-R passed certification together.

Sloppy, at best, after a very good track record from the M9 to the infamous C-M.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

18 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

It did remind me however, how much I like the precision of rangefinder focus, having been using MF SLR film cameras for the last few weeks. 

The SL2 offers even more accurate on-sensor focus (no calibration woes), with MF-like performance (especially with SL Summicrons), and a terrific VF.  Of course, nothing substitutes for M viewing and focusing... and size.

Jeff

[wlaidlaw]

Jeff, 

I have more than enough big heavy cameras. I seem to use the CL a whole lot more than my SL, just because of weight. 

Wilson

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Jeff, 

I have more than enough big heavy cameras. I seem to use the CL a whole lot more than my SL, just because of weight. 

Wilson

Sure, I get it... but just mentioning in light of your recent use of MF film bodies.  I use my M’s (M10 and M Monochrom) concurrent with the SL2, which balances extremely well with the SL Summicrons.  And IBIS works amazingly well, (even with M lenses) to expand the shooting envelope.  I don’t know if the M10-R will be of interest, but I’ll probably give it a test run down the road.

Jeff

[Ko.Fe.]

4 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

Something to consider: As we all know naturally dust is all around us, even when we can't see it. The Leica M10 shutter does remains down/closed protecting the sensor cover glass when not firing the shutter. I personally think Leica has also implemented some sort of antistatic coating/tech on the sensor glass cover or in the sensor itself. Leica is not clear on this approach other than stating “we have done something with the sensor design which makes [dust] less visible, less of a problem than before.” 

Leica is clear however why they haven't implemented an electronic sensor cleaning system in the M10. “There is no electronic cleaning system there because there is not enough space.”

https://camerajabber.com/leica-confident-dust-less-problem-m10/

"One of the problems associated with an interchangeable lens system with no mirror is an increased likelihood of dust getting to the sensor.

This seemed to be particularly problematic for previous M digital rangefinders, such as the M9 and the M Typ 240.

However, speaking to Camera Jabber during a trip to the Leica HQ in Wetzlar, Germany, the product management team responsible for the M10 believes that the new sensor inside the camera should tackle that issue.

Some have questioned why there’s no electronic sensor cleaning system, such as we see in plenty of other cameras – especially when it has been noted to be a problem in the past.

Slim-line

Jesko Oeynhausen, product manager for camera systems, said: “There is no electronic cleaning system there because there is not enough space.”

One of the key improvements, and key facts about the camera that Leica is keen to celebrate, is how they have managed to slim down the design to bring it in line with the size of classic analogue M cameras.

Confident that the new design wouldn’t present the same kind of problems as previous cameras, Oeynhausen continued, “we have done something with the sensor design which makes [dust] less visible, less of a problem than before.”

It will be interesting to see if users report the same kind of dust issues – some have gone so far as to suggest that older M digital cameras needed to be sent away for sensor cleaning every few weeks."

 

I wouldn't mind to have M240 sized camera with dust reducing and even IBIS. If it will be without 4K video (cooling fan is needed behind sensor) it might be possible. Many are raving about how slim M10 is, but same doesn't seems to have problem to slap heavy and bulky lens on it.

I don't juggle lenses on my M-E, but even with new sensor, which has this dust repellent surface I have one sticky spot already.

My Canon 500D purchased in 2009 was cleaned only once and it have seen much more lens swapping. Dust reduction does work for sure. 

 

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[bags27]

51 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Of course, nothing substitutes for M viewing and focusing... and size.

Jeff

Nothing does. But the sound of the shutter of my M4-P gives at least as much pleasure.