M10-P or M10R

[dkmoore]

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1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

IBIS is a crutch and not necessary on an M. 
Faster shutter is not good on an M. It was tried and reduced.

Focus confirmation is and should be by eye with. O extra electronics to muck up the works.

I thought the same until I tried the SL2. For indoor shots it was very nice. I’m surviving without it but If we are talking where an M could even go, there aren’t many options at this point. 
 

as for the focus confirmation, I guess you’ve been blessed with good luck and haven’t experienced any rangefinder or lens calibration issues that completely wreck a trip (photographic portion), shoots, etc. I’d love, having experienced those events, no longer having that worry. I’m sure I’m not alone. 
 

building/engineering a rangefinder that eliminates the need for calibration or having some sort of backup if the rangefinder/lens is out, would not muck things up in my view, but we all have our own opinions. 
 

 

[jdlaing]

56 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

I thought the same until I tried the SL2. For indoor shots it was very nice. I’m surviving without it but If we are talking where an M could even go, there aren’t many options at this point. 
I have ibis on other cameras but don’t need it on an M.

as for the focus confirmation, I guess you’ve been blessed with good luck and haven’t experienced any rangefinder or lens calibration issues that completely wreck a trip (photographic portion), shoots, etc. I’d love, having experienced those events, no longer having that worry. I’m sure I’m not alone. 
I make sure everything works together before I shoot. If it goes out after I start, and I’ve never had that happen, it would be bad luck.

building/engineering a rangefinder that eliminates the need for calibration or having some sort of backup if the rangefinder/lens is out, would not muck things up in my view, but we all have our own opinions. 
I don’t think that can be done with changeable lenses.

 

 

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[rramesh]

8 hours ago, M10 for me said:

Did we not say a few months ago that it was not possible to put a 40Mpix sensor into an M? Absolutely not possible and not needed either. And now we have it . . .

The size of a 35mm sensor should never change over time. However the area in front of it (cover glass etc.) and the area behind and around it (supporting electronics - AD convertor, image processor etc.) can be made thinner and smaller with technology innovation. So technically it should be possible to fit all future versions into the same form factor as the current M10.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I'm saving my GAS funds for Karbe lenses and listening carefully for rumors that fabs in the Far East are inviting Stefan Daniel to come and see their 80 MPx chips for the SL3.  I imagine that Jesko and Andreas K will be busy for the net few years vetting celebrities for special edition M10-Rs  and M10-Ms  We've only had white male Eurotrash celebs to date.  Isn't it time for these honors to go to photographers from Senegal, from Brazil, from China, or (perish the thought!) of the female sex?

Edited August 17, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Kwesi]

On 8/16/2020 at 12:30 PM, Tailwagger said:

Perhaps, but in the meantime, I've already completed two projects, shooting 2k frames with the 10-R in a month.  Even if your time estimate is correct, I'll wind up with ~20k frames this year.  Assuming a 60% return when trading the 10-R, thats $.25 a frame for results which I prefer over my now departed M10. Totally worth it, AFAIC.  

I believe we are in complete agreement that the M10 R is "totally worth it."

[Kwesi]

13 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'm saving my GAS funds for Karbe lenses and listening carefully for rumors that fabs in the Far East are inviting Stefan Daniel to come and see their 80 MPx chips for the SL3.  I imagine that Jesko and Andreas K will be busy for the net few years vetting celebrities for special edition M10-Rs  and M10-Ms  We've only had white male Eurotrash celebs to date.  Isn't it time for these honors to go to photographers from Senegal, from Brazil, from China, or (perish the thought!) of the female sex?

While i agree with you that we are long overdue for both gender and cultural diversity in the Special Edition M line up, I certainly hope that Jesko and Andreas K have a " next few years" strategy that goes beyond repainting and renaming M10's as a way to keep the base happy.

[Jeff S]

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11 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

While i agree with you that we are long overdue for both gender and cultural diversity in the Special Edition M line up, I certainly hope that Jesko and Andreas K have a " next few years" strategy that goes beyond repainting and renaming M10's as a way to keep the base happy.

Andreas Kaufmann recently said in an interview that Leica was working on a five year plan.  And he also said that there would be some “industry changing” developments that we’d hear about “ in the coming months”.  This may have nothing to do specifically with the M.

Jeff

Edited August 17, 2020 by Jeff S

[jdlaing]

23 hours ago, Chaemono said:

We‘re at the end of the M road then. 

We were at the end of the M road 65 years ago.

[jonoslack]

8 hours ago, jdlaing said:

We were at the end of the M road 65 years ago.

Haha - and it keeps on giving, I'm quite certain that the M11 is going to be another exciting step forwards, and that Leica are building new road as they go along.

[marknorton]

On 8/16/2020 at 6:18 PM, Chaemono said:

The difference in ‘fatness’ is 3.5 millimeters. This could be overcome in three years of progress in miniaturization, I hope.

If you're comparing the thickness of an M body to that of an SL2 body, remember the M is hampered by the need for 23mm (IIRC) of empty space from the front of the sensor to the lens flange. The sensor in an SL2 is much closer to the lens flange than that which gives them more space to play with behind the sensor. With the M, the thickness of the sensor, processing board, LCD display and cover glass determine the overall thickness of the camera. Having got the thickness down to that of the classic film M, I think they would be very unlikely to give that up.

For me, the benefit of the higher resolution sensor only comes when you can focus accurately enough; you can have all the resolution in the world but it won't matter if what you want to be in focus is not. That's why, and I repeat it like a worn out record, the M rangefinder is not fit for purpose in a world of 45+ MP and fast lenses. OK, you say, use the EVF but the existing one isn't great and once you've used the EVF in a Nikon Z or that in the SL2, it's glaringly behind the curve. The next version of the M has to improve the EVF and I would be quite happy to see the rangefinder dumped for the increasingly irrelevant anachronism it is. For me, now, that aspect of the M10-R isn't good enough to justify buying one.

[Tailwagger]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:16 PM, dkmoore said:

I thought the same until I tried the SL2. For indoor shots it was very nice. I’m surviving without it...   as for the focus confirmation, I guess you’ve been blessed with good luck and haven’t experienced any rangefinder or lens calibration issues...

100%. IBIS, utter crap... until I experienced the benefits.  It's true, IMO, that the M is uncanny when it comes to handholding down to, even below,  a 10th of a second. But thats where it ends. It's surprising just how useful being able to successfully hand hold into the 2 second range can be. 

As for focusing, there is nothing like a brand new, fresh from the factory M to convince me that my eyes aren't quite as bad as I think they are. After a year of ownership... not so much. I suppose I should stop being a wuss w.r.t. calibrating my own.  If I could convince Leica of one improvement to the M, it would be that to have every Leica Boutique runs a calibration weekend for M users at least once a year.

[Tailwagger]

Next up, IMO, organic sensor though I suspect we'd see it in the SL3 first.  Add enough DR into the mix and you don't really need IBIS.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, marknorton said:

For me, the benefit of the higher resolution sensor only comes when you can focus accurately enough; you can have all the resolution in the world but it won't matter if what you want to be in focus is not. That's why, and I repeat it like a worn out record, the M rangefinder is not fit for purpose in a world of 45+ MP and fast lenses. OK, you say, use the EVF but the existing one isn't great and once you've used the EVF in a Nikon Z or that in the SL2, it's glaringly behind the curve. The next version of the M has to improve the EVF and I would be quite happy to see the rangefinder dumped for the increasingly irrelevant anachronism it is. For me, now, that aspect of the M10-R isn't good enough to justify buying one.

Hi Mark

Whilst I agree it's all about focusing accurately - I still seem to manage - even wide open with the 50 'lux on the M10-R - and even on kiddies eyes, sure, not every shot, but not every shot with my SL2 either! I think there's life in the rangefinder yet - and I still prefer shooting with one . . . mind you I agree that the M11 (or whatever) needs to have a much better EVF, but please don't lose the rangefinder.

 . . and this was after the best part of a bottle of wine on my birthday yesterday!

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[RayD28]

On 8/16/2020 at 12:12 PM, jonoslack said:

But thinness wasn't a defining feature of the SL - and anyway, the SL2 is fatter than the M10! Of course, they might manage, but that's not what I understood

Jono, how big (or small) of a priority does Leica place on meaningfully reducing the size of a digital M?  By meaningful, I'm talking about a digital M the size of a film M.  

[mmradman]

20 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Mark

Whilst I agree it's all about focusing accurately - I still seem to manage - even wide open with the 50 'lux on the M10-R - and even on kiddies eyes, sure, not every shot, but not every shot with my SL2 either! I think there's life in the rangefinder yet - and I still prefer shooting with one . . . mind you I agree that the M11 (or whatever) needs to have a much better EVF, but please don't lose the rangefinder.

 . . and this was after the best part of a bottle of wine on my birthday yesterday!

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Wine can be very therapeutic.

Seriously, extra glass or two makes no difference, as you said "not every shot". Being tiered could be worse, i recall Tiff Needell doing a driving test on 5th Gear (UK Motoring Programme) comparing effect of drink and lack of sleep on the driving performance, lack of sleep was worse than 8 pints.

[Boojay]

25 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Mark

Whilst I agree it's all about focusing accurately - I still seem to manage - even wide open with the 50 'lux on the M10-R - and even on kiddies eyes, sure, not every shot, but not every shot with my SL2 either! I think there's life in the rangefinder yet - and I still prefer shooting with one . . . mind you I agree that the M11 (or whatever) needs to have a much better EVF, but please don't lose the rangefinder.

 . . and this was after the best part of a bottle of wine on my birthday yesterday!

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Only one bottle?  Many happy returns for yesterday.  Sweet shot, but have to ask if you bribed this cute little person to have exactly the same expression and look as you in your profile photo? 😊

[pedaes]

9 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

Jono, how big (or small) of a priority does Leica place on meaningfully reducing the size of a digital M?  By meaningful, I'm talking about a digital M the size of a film M.  

Not sure what Jono will say, but M10 IS the size of a film M after a huge effort on Leica's part!

[jonoslack]

13 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

Jono, how big (or small) of a priority does Leica place on meaningfully reducing the size of a digital M?  By meaningful, I'm talking about a digital M the size of a film M.  

HI There

As pedaes points out, there is no need for reduction, they already got there with the M10. I don't think they're trying to get any smaller, but I personally don't think there will be enough room to introduce IBIS without getting it fatter again, and I don't think they'll do that!

 

[jonoslack]

6 minutes ago, Boojay said:

Only one bottle?  Many happy returns for yesterday.  Sweet shot, but have to ask if you bribed this cute little person to have exactly the same expression and look as you in your profile photo? 😊

Hah - but that was a about 6pm! and I guess the expression is similar, I hadn't noticed! We do have some genes in common, so maybe that's it, bribery, normally, would be allowing him to climb all over our Scooby Doo van (VW California) with his muddy feet!.

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[mmradman]

I have only M246 and Z7 to compare for fatness, they are about same thickness.  If Nikon manged to squeeze IBIS into Z7 in 2018, who is to say that Pana-Leica cant improve on this metric is few years time. As Mark Norton pointed out (post #50) thing to look for is the distance between the camera flange and sensor surface,