M10R

[scott kirkpatrick]

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22 hours ago, fatihayoglu said:

Sinarback 44 was a multi shot camera back announced in 2001 which could take 1, 4 or 16 multishots is in my mind.

microscanning with piezoelectronics were hot topics at the beginning of 00s. IBIS built on that idea with gyroscope and more axis. For multi shot, you don’t need to have all axises, you just need to move the sensor in 2D, horizontally and vertically. IBIS can do that plus angle the sensor and move in z axis as well.

The Sinar 44 sounds like a scanning back (which would be easy enough to do multishot with by shifting the scanner half a pixel sideways and stopping more often to scan. but a little Googling shows that it had a 36x36 mm cooled CCD with 9mm square pixels, and could manage an ISO of from 25 to perhaps 100.  It sounds quite cool for its time.  Since I guess it came in mounts for MF cameras, and one such mount did 2D translation for 4X and 16X multishots, (using 9 micron and 4.5 micron displacements, all on-grid).  With the computing power of that time, it probably took minutes to collect and output the data that was generated. I wonder what sort of file it produced.  A huge TIFF with the colors all expressed at every pixel would have been awesome, freeing them from the requirement to make the output look like a raw file at the higher resolution, which requires spreading out the R, G, and B data to separate locations under a higher resolution pretend-Bayer filter, as current multishot offerings do.

[scroy]

GAS is not something I want as I'm waiting for my M10 to come back from repair.  Horrible thing for Leica to do to my mind and my bank account.🧐

Edited June 28, 2020 by scroy
typo

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[wlaidlaw]

The big advantage of the EVF is the access it grants to a massive range of non-RF coupled lenses. I just bought a Rolleiflex QBM to Leica M adapter (a cheap far eastern one but beautifully made with no slop or rock at all. There is a very wide range of QBM 35mm lenses from Zeiss, Rollei, Voigtlander and Tokina, including 2 x 1000 mm lenses, a huge f8 refractive Tele-Tessar and an f5.6 Catadioptric lens. I also have R adapter M to use all my excellent R lenses and a Novoflex LEM-CONT to use my Zeiss Contax lenses. 

Wilson

[LBJ2]

Maybe by July 16th or sooner. 40MP sensor. Maybe 😎

"New info: 
-[T]he Leica M10-R sensor may not be the same as in the SL2/Q2 but a brand new 40MP sensor, similar to the M10 Monochrom but in color.
-Price is expected to be identical or close to the M10 Monochrom ($8,295 in the US).
-Based on the pictures we have seen so far, we will probably get two different colors: black and silver.
-The Leica M10-R will most likely be announced on or around July 16 or maybe even earlier. Stay tuned."

https://leicarumors.com/2020/06/27/update-the-upcoming-leica-m10-r-camera-could-have-a-40mp-and-not-a-47mp-sensor.aspx/

Edited June 28, 2020 by LBJ2

[sblutter]

The question, "Is 47MP necessary?" goes to what you intend.  In professional work of all sorts, larger sensors have been used for years.  I started my career shooting architecture in 4x5" for both resolution and perspective control.  Wasn't much fun to set-up on a 50+ story roof in high wind, but sure was exhilarating!

From reading this forum for years, my impression most participants are shooting for online uses which certainly don't need 47MP. 

I shoot for print.  I go through a lot of A2 paper and when I need/want larger, there are plenty of excellent places in Chicago, my home town.  I've had made many 40x60" and larger with my aging M240 which are tack sharp with excellent detail viewed from inches away. 

Will I be tempted to buy a new M10R or a used one 3 years into its run?  Sure.  But will I need one?  Probably not, but if I did I can always rent a Phase One kit for a day or 2.

I understand the impulse to get the latest / greatest gear - its a 'want'.  'Need' is another matter.

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[typ3656]

Does this larger sensor require more time for the camera to complete its long exposure noise reduction?

[typ3656]

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On 6/27/2020 at 6:57 AM, bherman01545 said:

Agreed, and IMO the M platform isn’t geared towards landscape photography anyway. I think that 24mp is more than enough for street, wedding and general photography

Hi bherman01545. I purchased an M10 a couple of months ago and, since, I've been reading a lot of opinions on what an M camera should and should not be used for. I'm new, so I'm not trying to be a smartbum with this question, but can you please elaborate on why M cameras aren't good for landscape? There's a lot of "type-casting" with M cameras, pasting labels on what an M camera should be used for, so I'm just curious. Thanks!

[bherman01545]

1 minute ago, typ3656 said:

Hi bherman01545. I purchased an M10 a couple of months ago and, since, I've been reading a lot of opinions on what an M camera should and should not be used for. I'm new, so I'm not trying to be a smartbum with this question, but can you please elaborate on why M cameras aren't good for landscape? There's a lot of "type-casting" with M cameras, pasting labels on what an M camera should be used for, so I'm just curious. Thanks!

They're actually fine for landscape, and if it is your only camera, then by all means, go for it, but it has some limitations.

For one, 24mp might not be enough resolution for some. The viewfinder only shows frame-lines up to 28mm, and there are much certainly much better options out there for less than 1/2 the price. If I were out for the day (hiking for example) and had only my M10, I wouldn't hesitate using it. My comment was only that the M10 is optimized for street, reportage and possibly events.

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, typ3656 said:

Does this larger sensor require more time for the camera to complete its long exposure noise reduction?

It’s the same size sensor.  More MP.

Jeff

[typ3656]

5 minutes ago, bherman01545 said:

They're actually fine for landscape, and if it is your only camera, then by all means, go for it, but it has some limitations.

For one, 24mp might not be enough resolution for some. The viewfinder only shows frame-lines up to 28mm, and there are much certainly much better options out there for less than 1/2 the price. If I were out for the day (hiking for example) and had only my M10, I wouldn't hesitate using it. My comment was only that the M10 is optimized for street, reportage and possibly events.

Ah, righto. Gotcha. Appreciate the response! I didn't purchase the M10 for any specific purpose but just to take photos with. I was hoping that it would adapt to whatever situation I needed it for and to be able to shoot and post photos up without getting stoned for committing a faux pas.

[typ3656]

5 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

It’s the same size sensor.  More MP.

Jeff

Oops sorry. Thanks for the correction. Yes, I didn't mean physically larger. I got my wires crossed. So does more MP mean more time required for the sensor to complete long-exposure noise reductions? I ask because, with my M10, when I took a 16-second exposure yesterday, the camera also took 16 seconds to complete its noise reduction, which was a tiny bit of a nuisance (though I know it's for the better).

Edited June 28, 2020 by typ3656

[farnz]

21 minutes ago, bherman01545 said:

The viewfinder only shows frame-lines up to 28mm,

So you could use LiveView or the Visoflex 020.  If you're shooting landscapes, particularly with a wide angle lens and its natural depth of field, focus won't be crucial and often at set to infinity and framing will be the primary concern.

Pete.

[bherman01545]

You are correct. The M10 is not a landscape camera per se, but definitely a usable tool

[sblutter]

47 minutes ago, typ3656 said:

Does this larger sensor require more time for the camera to complete its long exposure noise reduction?

I imagine it would but I don't need long exposures very often.  If you do, please use a tripod or other support to avoid blurring

[sblutter]

45 minutes ago, typ3656 said:

Hi bherman01545. I purchased an M10 a couple of months ago and, since, I've been reading a lot of opinions on what an M camera should and should not be used for. I'm new, so I'm not trying to be a smartbum with this question, but can you please elaborate on why M cameras aren't good for landscape? There's a lot of "type-casting" with M cameras, pasting labels on what an M camera should be used for, so I'm just curious. Thanks!

M cameras do well with landscapes - but its not the camera that makes a good landscape picture.  More important are lens choice, composition and being ready when the light is what you want.  And pay attention to the sky!

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, typ3656 said:

Hi bherman01545. I purchased an M10 a couple of months ago and, since, I've been reading a lot of opinions on what an M camera should and should not be used for. I'm new, so I'm not trying to be a smartbum with this question, but can you please elaborate on why M cameras aren't good for landscape? There's a lot of "type-casting" with M cameras, pasting labels on what an M camera should be used for, so I'm just curious. Thanks!

I use my first Rangefinder the M10, for all genres including sports, events and landscape. Thankfully I never paid much attention to "M10 is optimized for street, reportage" I just started to use it like a camera. 

[Ko.Fe.]

I knew one photographer who has to trade his traditional DSLR to Fuji dMF just to meet customers requirements for large prints. Very large. 

But do most needs it? My impression - absolutely not. 

What Leica needs to figure out in 2020 is how to make different sized dng files, not just primitive jpeg1 only.

If 40 MP sensor is not going to have dust reduction, it might not fly well... Again, 2020, but Leica is decades behind on it.

[sblutter]

Exactly, have fun and ask for comments from people in the arts;  painters, sculptors, writers - and so on

[Dennis]

Great powers come with great responsibilities ... More MP sensor, bigger and faster SD cards, less space in SSD, at least for me. As said above, the question is: Is 40-47 MP necessary? I don't think so. It could help for some, it could be a limitation for others.
With 24MP, you can print large sizes and do almost whatever you want. If you are printing a building size print for Chanel, you maybe need a Medium format because the M system is so for you. For the rest, there is MasterCard LOL. 
But for the M system, most essential appliances, it's more than enough. IMO. People can say that with a huge file size can crop like a crazy? Great. I answer them kindly, learn, and find a way to have a fabulous shot in-camera, not in PP. I'm not a purist, but I agree in a certain way with Elliott Erwitt: "Digital manipulation kills photography." It's about making slight adjustments and not to recreate another picture from a picture.

That is, IMHO, what the M system essence is about. My approach to see my M10 is to have a film camera with the files downloaded on my computer (because it's fast and free). Again, I hope the M10R improves some features, and don't affect that essence. 

Good vibes, as always

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[sblutter]

3 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I knew one photographer who has to trade his traditional DSLR to Fuji dMF just to meet customers requirements for large prints. Very large. 

Glad he/she is engaged with the professional side.  Will learn a lot

But do most needs it? My impression - absolutely not.

Who knows what someone else thinks is a 'need'?

What Leica needs to figure out in 2020 is how to make different sized dng files, not just primitive jpeg1 only.

To me, that's where knowing Photoshop is important.  (I only shoot in DNG - never touch that setting - no point for what I do.)

If 40 MP sensor is not going to have dust reduction, it might not fly well... Again, 2020, but Leica is decades behind on it.

I suggest you make a habit of checking your sensor and learning how to clean it properly.  Photoshop is good for retouching dust spots quickly.  Before computers we had to use tiny paint brushes.  Analogue M's at the time were subject to film scratches - made us crazy!

I don't expect the camera to do anything.  Its up the user to know everything about the process from choosing a subject, settings, lens, awareness, intent - to a professionally done print on museum quality paper - or internet gallery.