M10-P or M10R

[rsoby]

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Will pick up my M10-R on Friday...:o), many thanks for your input here!!

[Edax]

The Leica M flange focal distance is 27,8mm, the L-mount flange focal distance is 20mm and the Nikon Z flange focal distance is 16mm.

In same thickness bodies (measured from the lens mount), there is 11,8mm more depth in a Nikon Z compared to a Leica M. That is a lot of room for IBIS 😇

Edited August 18, 2020 by Edax

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[RayD28]

Thanks for pointing this out.  I've always compared the M10 size to the size of an M3.  But when I compare the M10 to an MP film the sizes are indeed comparable.  Thanks for pointing this out.  

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, RayD28 said:

Jono, how big (or small) of a priority does Leica place on meaningfully reducing the size of a digital M?  By meaningful, I'm talking about a digital M the size of a film M.  

This was a huge part of the marketing campaign for the M10 compared to the M240.  And apparently it was so critical that Leica decided to leave out video functionality due to heat management concerns (likely exacerbated by the thinner body).

Jeff

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, Boojay said:

Only one bottle?  Many happy returns for yesterday.  Sweet shot, but have to ask if you bribed this cute little person to have exactly the same expression and look as you in your profile photo? 😊

He's posted several of that cute little person.  I hope his grandkids stay eager to pose for many years (and birthdays, theirs and his) to come.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

I have only M246 and Z7 to compare for fatness, they are about same thickness.  If Nikon manged to squeeze IBIS into Z7 in 2018, who is to say that Pana-Leica cant improve on this metric is few years time. As Mark Norton pointed out (post #50) thing to look for is the distance between the camera flange and sensor surface,

The FFD (Flange Focal Distance) is as follows:

Nikon Z7 16mm

Leica M10 27.8mm

So Leica have 11mm less to play with than Nikon do - and the M10 is already thinner than the Z7. 

 

Oops Edax has already posted this - thanks Edax

Edited August 18, 2020 by jonoslack
snap

[jonoslack]

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33 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

He's posted several of that cute little person.  I hope his grandkids stay eager to pose for many years (and birthdays, theirs and his) to come.

Haha - He's already becoming . . shall we say "feisty" about it (as is his sister). Certainly there's no time for focus and recompose!

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[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, rsoby said:

Will pick up my M10-R on Friday...:o), many thanks for your input here!!

Congratulations! Great decision. I hope you enjoy it as much as I'm enjoying mine.

 

[WvE]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

The FFD (Flange Focal Distance) is as follows:

Nikon Z7 16mm

Leica M10 27.8mm

So Leica have 11mm less to play with than Nikon do - and the M10 is already thinner than the Z7. 

 

Oops Edax has already posted this - thanks Edax

I'm afraid the i Phone beats them both...

[mmradman]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

The FFD (Flange Focal Distance) is as follows:

Nikon Z7 16mm

Leica M10 27.8mm

So Leica have 11mm less to play with than Nikon do - and the M10 is already thinner than the Z7. 

 

Oops Edax has already posted this - thanks Edax

We know that, but let’s not be stopped in our track musing what may be possible just because current model is here.

There was a time when fitting digital sensor was not possible, welcome M8.

Next, it was not possible to fit full frame sensor, welcome M9.

Making digital M camera same thickness as film impossible, welcome M10.

For a long time 24Mp was seen as limit, welcome 40Mp and 45MP sensors in M10R and SL2.

It took 14 years from M8 till now, there will be new models be it on 4 or 5 year cycle. Fully utilising M lenses as per Peter Karbe philosophy of being used at max aperture is showing limitation with optical RF and static sensor, current external EVF is over 4 years old, fast shutter speed is limited at 1/4000sec, even R8/R9 in film era had 1/8000.  

Usual  LUF contributors are doing usual Leica's advocacy but the market pressure and time will tell what future brings. I have no interest in any of the current M models, M246 is perfectly adequate not to mention unique as supplement to the range of latest colour mirrorless cameras.

[marknorton]

5 hours ago, Edax said:

The Leica M flange focal distance is 27,8mm, the L-mount flange focal distance is 20mm and the Nikon Z flange focal distance is 16mm.

In same thickness bodies (measured from the lens mount), there is 11,8mm more depth in a Nikon Z compared to a Leica M. That is a lot of room for IBIS 😇

Thanks for clarifying the flange to sensor distance for the M, I couldn’t remember it exactly. That’s one dimension in the M which can never be changed and Leica have done a fine job shrinking the M10 which makes it feel much better in the hand than the digital Ms which came before. For me these days, I use an M10 and a Z7 and I am very happy to be able to use my M and R glass on the Z7. 

[Chaemono]

I’m marking the posts about how IBIS can’t fit in an M10 body to come back and rub it in when the M11 is announced next year. 🤣

[jonoslack]

6 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I’m marking the posts about how IBIS can’t fit in an M10 body to come back and rub it in when the M11 is announced next year. 🤣

Haha - well - bear this in mind

On a film M the film plate is almost touching the back cover . . . and the flange distance is just the same as it is on a digital camera - with the M10, they've managed to fit a sensor and electronics in that slim sliver of space - now you're predicting that they can also fit IBIS in there as well . .  So I'm going to mark these posts so that I can point out how wrong you were when they introduce the M11 next year 🙃🙂

[pedaes]

16 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

when they introduce the M11 next year

So, we are seeing a M11 next year, and it definitely will not have IBIS. Right?

[jdlaing]

Ibis will fit in an M body but it would be much thicker than an M-10.

[Chaemono]

vor 56 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

Haha - well - bear this in mind

On a film M the film plate is almost touching the back cover . . . and the flange distance is just the same as it is on a digital camera - with the M10, they've managed to fit a sensor and electronics in that slim sliver of space - now you're predicting that they can also fit IBIS in there as well . .  So I'm going to mark these posts so that I can point out how wrong you were when they introduce the M11 next year 🙃🙂

The fallacy in your argument is that electronics keep getting smaller. See here for an example of the shrinkage: https://www.mediatek.com/innovations/fabrication-process-technology

[scott kirkpatrick]

19 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

The fallacy in your argument is that electronics keep getting smaller. See here for an example of the shrinkage: https://www.mediatek.com/innovations/fabrication-process-technology

The flaw in your argument about electronics getting small is geometry.  It's true that circuits in the plane of the silicon get closer together, but IBIS needs to leave air around the chip, in order to cancel movements due to pitch and yaw.  Only roll  and x and y displacements are cancelled by an in-plane correction.  Olympus, when the technology was new, used to show a video of the chip motions that are required by the standard displacement test.  It would make you a bit seasick, and you can see why the chip needs space to move around. So to keep the lens-to-image spacing constant, the front of the lens mount would have to be pushed further forward by several mm.  I wonder if that is possible with the M rangefinder cam and mount flanges.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

So, we are seeing a M11 next year, and it definitely will not have IBIS. Right?

I don't know pedaes - or I would have to keep my mouth shut!

 

[jonoslack]

36 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

The fallacy in your argument is that electronics keep getting smaller. See here for an example of the shrinkage: https://www.mediatek.com/innovations/fabrication-process-technology

Well, we shall see, but I don't think there is room for IBIS in the back of an M10 sized body even if you talk away all the electronics and most of the sensor.

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[jdlaing]

51 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Well, we shall see, but I don't think there is room for IBIS in the back of an M10 sized body even if you talk away all the electronics and most of the sensor.

Adds somewhere around 6mm.