Can the new SL compete or even sostitute in some fields the S?

[ropo54]

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5 hours ago, BernardC said:

As I have stated before, I don't think that we (people in this forum) are the target market for the S. With a few exceptions perhaps, but not many.

In a similar way, I don't think that high-street camera storefronts are the target market for the S. It's not an impulse buy, or even an in-stock buy.

You won't see many PhaseOne cameras or Hasselblad H-series on display this Christmas either.

I'm not surprised that most Leica stores don't actively carry the line. It's not their customer base, and they would have to sink a six-figure sum in inventory to do it any justice. There's nothing realistic about that business plan, and they know it.

This type of product is usually sold through a small number of specialized dealers. Those dealers also carry high-end lighting, studio fixtures, etc.

The same thing goes for professional cinema and sound gear. You won't find that at your local "Mom and Pop" camera store. They could probably order a VariCam on your behalf if you pressed them hard enough, but there's no way they will get one to display in the window, hoping for a walk-in with poor impulse control and a good credit limit.

As to the highlighted portions above . . .  Leica Miami certainly used to carry S products and used to carry pre-owned S lenses as of 1 year ago. As per an earlier poster, they no longer have inventory. In fact, they had told me that they were not taking S gear on consignment!  (Which entails no capital investment).  Hence, I would again make the point that Leica Germany not making much noise about the S line, hurts everyone across the board. 

[xiaubauu2009]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Go to Fotocare in NYC and ask them how many Leica S's they have sold. I think it might be enlightening. The last time I was there, we were talking about it, and they seemed to be shocked that I was shooting it, even though they sell it and know that it is a good system. They are a classic pro shop, servicing NYC pro photogs, selling Phase One, Profoto, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hasselblad, Fuji, Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. Maybe it is different in Germany? 

The store that I bought all my leica gear from here in Shanghai, HuaRui Camera, at the height of the S006 product cycle, they are always in stock and always have 2~3... They were selling like hotcakes then... but after about 2~3 years in around 2015~ish, the market start to dump them for the new 007 and also because of the CCD corrosion. There's a lot of second hand S now at the store selling at less than a second hand M240 price... It's actually a very good deal particularly some of them have CCD replaced.

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[xiaubauu2009]

3 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

My experience as a German is that the German customers themselves struggle much more with the S Line. I don't know why. It seems a bit that our mentality is diffusing into the viewpoint to the Leica S. A German is not a German if he doesn't find anything to criticize in something which seems not to be "perfect". That is one reason why I prefer the international part of this forum. It feel more open minded. And I can tell you. When I travel to other countries I always notice how "German" I am for myself. 🙂

OMG, you said the same thing as 2 of my german friends... they said that if you walked into any bar, and the only table that were arguing about the quality of the beer and how it should be done are 9 out of 10 going to be Germans.....

[geetee1972]

On 11/23/2019 at 11:13 AM, Jon Warwick said:

I’ve seen some incredible 90” prints off 8x10 in galleries. Mitch Epstein’s work comes to mind. The colour tonality and “sharpness” of his works were extraordinary.
 

I’ve casually played with IQ150 files and my gut feel is that a flawless 8x10 (which can he hard to achieve) has the digital beat across most image quality factors at that extreme 90” print size.

But up to 60-70”, I’d say the high high megapixel digital medium format backs compare really really well ...and given the complete lack of grain, the image quality “feels” more like 8x10 than they do 4x5. 

Aside from “resolution”, I think an even bigger difference is the highlight response and colour tonality between these digi backs and film. That said, in this regard, I was impressed by how continuous the feel of the images (eg, in terms of tonality) was of Greg Crewdson’s “Cathedral of the Pines” series (done with digital) compared to his earlier series of works like “Beneath the Roses” (on 8x10).

Have you ever seen a Richard Learoyd print from his camera obscura? Those works are astonishing.

[bilbrown]

UPDATE: after a full day with the SL2, along with my S (007), SL1, FP and minimally with my S1 for comparison.

 

The S holds up in image quality (which I think we all expected), but the SL2 with native lenses is a BEAST! It doesn’t have the pop and depth of the S - but it may not need it. 
 

the color image (sorry uploaded sideways) is the SL2, the Monochrome is the S. Not sure if you can tell the differences here. It’s pretty nice.

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[Photon42]

I would go for the camera being capable of shooting color, normally. But then I see your portrait shot from the color camera is in landscape orientation, so that is clearly a no-go. Damn. Keeping the iPhone ...😉

[bilbrown]

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8 hours ago, Photon42 said:

I would go for the camera being capable of shooting color, normally. But then I see your portrait shot from the color camera is in landscape orientation, so that is clearly a no-go. Damn. Keeping the iPhone ...😉

Hahaha, I uploaded it from my phone. The landscape happened because of some bb code I think.

[Stuart Richardson]

Can you elaborate your thoughts? Unfortunately the difference is not spoken too loudly via 500kb sRGB jpegs...I am sure the differences are more visible to you, but for me on the web at least, those images could have been taken with any camera. 

[davidmknoble]

On 11/24/2019 at 5:42 PM, ropo54 said:

As to the highlighted portions above . . .  Leica Miami certainly used to carry S products and used to carry pre-owned S lenses as of 1 year ago. As per an earlier poster, they no longer have inventory. In fact, they had told me that they were not taking S gear on consignment!  (Which entails no capital investment).  Hence, I would again make the point that Leica Germany not making much noise about the S line, hurts everyone across the board. 

I believe Leica Miami, like other Leica stores, understand the capital investment in the S.  However,  the S is expensive enough that items move much more slowly than other Leica lines.  I would not want to invest a lot of cash in used S equipment to sell slowly, when I could invest the same amount in M lenses that move very quickly.  I think it is a sound business decision.  That said, I have purchased all of my S equipment from Leica Miami, some more recently.

I also understand the S3 is late because Leica wants it perfected. I have not spent time with the SL2, but the S007 still has a great color array and I can produce images that need just a little sharpening and very, very little exposure adjustment.  

I would add that I also listened to a Leica interview in which Leica AG indicated (don't quote me, but I'm close) that SL lenses were good up to about 60mp and S lenses to 100mp.  That is a long life and plenty left to go.  I don't see the S going away anytime soon.

IMHO.

[Sarnian]

1 hour ago, Outdoorimages said:

I have purchased all of my S equipment from Leica Miami, some more recently.

Genuine question... what's the benefit of buying S equipment (especially lenses) brand new?

I recently bought myself a Mint condition (with 1 year warranty remaining) 30-90mm on eBay for £2,500. To buy it new from Leica Mayfair it would cost £8,700. If the Auto Focus motor fails after the 1 year of remaining warranty is up I'll just send it to Leica for a new AF motor. That only costs £200. So, I just saved myself £6,000, no? 💡

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sarnian

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Outdoorimages said:

I would add that I also listened to a Leica interview in which Leica AG indicated (don't quote me, but I'm close) that SL lenses were good up to about 60mp and S lenses to 100mp.  

No problem for either (or even for TL lenses, for that matter).

Karbe said that S lenses are capable of 100 lp/mm at 50 % contrast, while the SL lenses are designed for 60 lp/mm at 50% contrast (fewer line pairs at higher contrast levels)...

For the S (under the heading ‘Lenses’)...

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/11/leica-s2-review-test-shooting-in.html?m=1

And for discussion of SL (and TL) lenses, the recent Karbe interview with Hugh Brownstone is informative (from about 3min. onward)...

 

Keep in mind, too, that any distortion corrections for S lenses must be built in, or else problems would be visible through the OVF, while SL lenses can also rely on in-camera software corrections due to its mirrorless design.

Jeff

Edited November 30, 2019 by Jeff S

[Stuart Richardson]

I sense that there is some mismatch because of the difference in sensor size regarding the optical performance. If you look at the MTF of the SL lenses, the summicrons are clearly ahead of the S lenses, at least in terms of the MTF charts. That said, some S lenses tend to be a bit sharper than they appear on MTF, because of field curvature...they are very sharp somewhere, just not in the exact plane of focus. I only have one SL lens, the 50mm Summicron, but it is clearly sharper than my 70mm Summarit, which would be its closest comparison. I only got it earlier this month, so I have not had time enough to really get a sense of its character, but it seemed pretty similar to the S lenses, if I am honest. I know people have talked about big differences, but so far I have not seen it. Just like the S lenses, it is very sharp with high contrast and pronounced, smooth falloff with neutral and pleasing bokeh. It reminded me a lot of the S 120mm, to be honest, both in sharpness and in manner of rendering.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[davidmknoble]

16 hours ago, Sarnian said:

Genuine question... what's the benefit of buying S equipment (especially lenses) brand new?

I recently bought myself a Mint condition (with 1 year warranty remaining) 30-90mm on eBay for £2,500. To buy it new from Leica Mayfair it would cost £8,700. If the Auto Focus motor fails after the 1 year of remaining warranty is up I'll just send it to Leica for a new AF motor. That only costs £200. So, I just saved myself £6,000, no? 💡

I agree that all Leica equipment has great options as pre-owned.  The condition or last CLA of the lens is important, and older S lenses should already have the new motor installed from Leica.  So, like anything, just do research before buying pre-owned and understand the return policy if something is wrong.  Leica Miami does a stellar job of describing pre-owned equipment in detail and answers any of my questions, along with a generous return policy if something is wrong. Almost all of the S gear is pre-owned...

[ropo54]

20 minutes ago, Outdoorimages said:

I agree that all Leica equipment has great options as pre-owned.  The condition or last CLA of the lens is important, and older S lenses should already have the new motor installed from Leica.  So, like anything, just do research before buying pre-owned and understand the return policy if something is wrong.  Leica Miami does a stellar job of describing pre-owned equipment in detail and answers any of my questions, along with a generous return policy if something is wrong. Almost all of the S gear is pre-owned...

Leica Miami is great to deal with.  But, as I had posted earlier, Leica Miami's pre-owned S gear is almost non-existent. They are also not taking S gear on consignment, which involves no capital investment!  

On the contrary, Leica SF and Camera West are well stocked with S gear and will take trades, though, trade prices are a bit soft at the moment, perhaps pending the S3's arrival.

If one can find a really terrific price on a used S lens, and they are around, I'd buy it - even if the AF motor has NOT been fixed, because it can be repaired for $300-500.  (Obviously, if the motor has been repaired, that's even better).  

For those also using the SL 601, the S lenses offer some terrific prime lens options. (I'm keeping my eyes open for any posts of the S lenses on the new SL2).

[alan.y]

33 minutes ago, ropo54 said:

They are also not taking S gear on consignment, which involves no capital investment! 

Rob, do you mean S gear has been selling so poorly that they'd rather not even try (at no cost but handling and storage)?

[ropo54]

1 hour ago, alan.y said:

Rob, do you mean S gear has been selling so poorly that they'd rather not even try (at no cost but handling and storage)?

Alan,

I do not know the answer, but what else could one surmise?

I was thinking of trading in one of my S lenses, and they were 'not buying'. (We never got to discussing a trade price).  When I suggested taking the lens on consignment, the answer was 'not at this time'.  Needless to say after buying my S and SL from them (along with  a fair amount of other items through the last few years) I was none too pleased with their reply.  

When out in San Francisco this summer, Leica SF/Camera West offered me trade value or cash out value on any or all of my S equipment. And, still would.  But, for the moment, I've decided to stay with the S line, awaiting the S3, to see what the 'landscape' looks like (no pun intended!). I still find that the S007 is faster to shoot than either the Fuji GFX or the X1D, and since the lenses are interchangeable with the SL 601, I remain committed and contented.

Rob

[ocean2059]

1 hour ago, ropo54 said:

Leica Miami is great to deal with.  But, as I had posted earlier, Leica Miami's pre-owned S gear is almost non-existent. They are also not taking S gear on consignment, which involves no capital investment!  

On the contrary, Leica SF and Camera West are well stocked with S gear and will take trades, though, trade prices are a bit soft at the moment, perhaps pending the S3's arrival.

If one can find a really terrific price on a used S lens, and they are around, I'd buy it - even if the AF motor has NOT been fixed, because it can be repaired for $300-500.  (Obviously, if the motor has been repaired, that's even better).  

For those also using the SL 601, the S lenses offer some terrific prime lens options. (I'm keeping my eyes open for any posts of the S lenses on the new SL2).

I got my S2 from Leica Miami store years ago and it serves very well as I continue to use my "lowly S2" with great satisfaction. I am, however, looking for an S007 if used price falls a bit more. Leica San Francisco story has good amount of S lens/body at the moment.  

[bilbrown]

3 hours ago, ropo54 said:

Alan,

I do not know the answer, but what else could one surmise?

I was thinking of trading in one of my S lenses, and they were 'not buying'. (We never got to discussing a trade price).  When I suggested taking the lens on consignment, the answer was 'not at this time'.  Needless to say after buying my S and SL from them (along with  a fair amount of other items through the last few years) I was none too pleased with their reply.  

When out in San Francisco this summer, Leica SF/Camera West offered me trade value or cash out value on any or all of my S equipment. And, still would.  But, for the moment, I've decided to stay with the S line, awaiting the S3, to see what the 'landscape' looks like (no pun intended!). I still find that the S007 is faster to shoot than either the Fuji GFX or the X1D, and since the lenses are interchangeable with the SL 601, I remain committed and contented.

Rob

Yeah, this is a serious reason why I keep my S typ 007 and three lenses. It’s a find IQ, solid system that has been around now for over a decade. No kinks like the *new* mirrorless Fuji GX series or Hassy X1 series. It seems like with these mirrorless cameras you have to wait a generation or more before the kinks are worked out ans I feel like we are all just beta-testers at a reduced price point so we will upgrade regularly. Yes, and the lenses respond with a *native* Leica adapter to the L mount, bonus!

 

that said, I talked to a few Leica folks about waiting for the S3. These are people in the know, I would suppose, they told me I “wouldn’t want to do that.” Not sure that that means besides maybe they want people to have the SL2 and be happy with it, or whatever.

 

For me, my equipment is something I use. It is something I also bought so I would have a nice tax break and be in a community of users that seem to care about the history of photography.
 

My complete kit already paid itself off because of use and more. My M cameras seem to retain a great deal of value, as does the four year old SL1. The S goes down more and more and even the lenses. Now may not be exactly the time to get out of the system if you use it, but if you use M/R/SL or other L mount lenses at a 35MM FF point and want to keep building that system you may want to abandon the S - or maybe keep it around for special things like I have been doing. If you just love the system and don’t need to upgrade your “Ferrari” of cameras, then don’t. Why bother.

 

An S will always be an S, and a Leica soul this camera will always have.

 

I believe that many of us that abandon this system will end up rebuying it in a few years, because from what I can tell - even with the new higher MP line up - it’s still the best IQ this company has made in the digital era. 

[davidmknoble]

On 11/30/2019 at 10:49 AM, ropo54 said:

Leica Miami is great to deal with.  But, as I had posted earlier, Leica Miami's pre-owned S gear is almost non-existent. They are also not taking S gear on consignment, which involves no capital investment!  

On the contrary, Leica SF and Camera West are well stocked with S gear and will take trades, though, trade prices are a bit soft at the moment, perhaps pending the S3's arrival.

If one can find a really terrific price on a used S lens, and they are around, I'd buy it - even if the AF motor has NOT been fixed, because it can be repaired for $300-500.  (Obviously, if the motor has been repaired, that's even better).  

For those also using the SL 601, the S lenses offer some terrific prime lens options. (I'm keeping my eyes open for any posts of the S lenses on the new SL2).

I understand some US Leica dealers carry more pre-owned S equipment than Leica Miami and your statement is correct.  

My bigger suggestion is a) be sure you are getting a lens that has been updated with a new motor - last I looked, Leica SF had a lot of S lenses - most of which did not have new motor updates.  If you don't mind buying and waiting for a repair, then I'd say go for it. b) be sure you understand the return policy - e.g., Leica SF has no returns unless the lens does not work, and Leica Miami has a short period to try it and make sure it works to your satisfaction.  

The great news is there are plenty of Leica US stores, so we have choices.  I have just had great results asking Leica Miami to keep an eye out for a specific lens and they find one for me.  I don't normally sell on consignment, I have to confess, instead I trade in for something else. In any event, my experience has been so good, I am loyal to them.

As a note, I also paid a premium to a Leica US store for a used S lens, that happened to become available a week later at a significantly lower price for an equivalent lens at another store - so I suggest just check around for pricing.

On another note, it will be interesting to see the S primes on the new SL2, I enjoyed them on the SL 601... you are right there as well!

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[ropo54]

3 hours ago, Outdoorimages said:

I understand some US Leica dealers carry more pre-owned S equipment than Leica Miami and your statement is correct.  

My bigger suggestion is a) be sure you are getting a lens that has been updated with a new motor - last I looked, Leica SF had a lot of S lenses - most of which did not have new motor updates.  If you don't mind buying and waiting for a repair, then I'd say go for it. b) be sure you understand the return policy - e.g., Leica SF has no returns unless the lens does not work, and Leica Miami has a short period to try it and make sure it works to your satisfaction.  

 

On another note, it will be interesting to see the S primes on the new SL2, I enjoyed them on the SL 601... you are right there as well!

Just addressing your highlighted point above: If I'm not mistaken, Leica SF will guarantee against any AF failure for 6 months from the date of purchase. But, that should be re-confirmed with Leica SF.  Rob