Can the new SL compete or even sostitute in some fields the S?

[chrismuc]

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06

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[ropo54]

S007 w S100 f2

What do you think? Is there a difference with full frame? Your portraits are great. I think I see a difference in dimension, but it only matters as to whether you do. Rob

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Edited November 10, 2019 by ropo54

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[ocean2059]

1 hour ago, chrismuc said:

Unfortunately I neither can provide AB comparison pictures between systems respectively formats but maybe you can try to assume the sensor formats of the following six images. Four different (digital) formats: APS-C, 135, 44x33, 645 (54x40). IMO it is possible with any of these sensor formats and the according lenses to achieve nice bokeh and rendering. It very much depends on the light.

01

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I don't disagree that you can get similar Bokeh, sharpness, micro-contrast, and resolution with different sensor sizes.  You could also discuss A/B switch comparison, in great length with sample images.  But if you look at a set of images taken with S systems (say few hundreds of images) then compared with another set taken with a Sony/Nikon/Leica SL system, I hope you will see the differences and come away with your preferences.  I have used several systems as many others here. Over the past five years, I usually take more than one camera systems with me on trips. When I looked few thousands of images of each trip, I can tell the differences. For me, images taken with Leica S system are special, perhaps not in certain performance aspects. but in overall look.  

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, chrismuc said:

Four different (digital) format

I think there is no S in this series, which isn’t either scientific proof for whatever

Edited November 10, 2019 by otto.f

[ZHNL]

Hi, Chrismuc, I think we all agree that it is really the photographer or photograph itself that either light or story make the final photo shine. It is obviously not the camera or lens to determine how good final results are. With that pre-condition, we can come back to discuss gear now. 

You have pointed out it is impossible to point out which is which in above 6 images posted. I know it is true as well especially at this internet size without context. If the conclusion you make from your samples are: IT is really doesn’t matter for this case either you choose M43, APSC, FF or MF because nobody will know the difference. 

I agree.  IF that is your goal, then I think it is good for you that you can simply buy any system in market to satisfy that goal. 

However, If I am the photographer, for a given condition, assume rest variables are fixed, with your edit skill and if you are happen to be picky about ergonomics, build quality, color, tonality, bokeh, focus transition etc… you are left to only certain choices will satisfy you. In this case, S happen to satisfy me most minus user friendly size, weight, price and reliability. 

If my main objective is best balance of potability, reliability and IQ, Z is the choice. 

If my main objective is portability, best manual control and street, then M it is.  

If my main objective is best IQ, fidelity and most pixel, then fujiGFX100 or IQ4150 (I can’t afford it though). However, for my usage, I can’t imagine I am an end user of GFX100 or IQ4150. 

Lets put this way, if there is no Leica S, I might not even buy MF digital as I need the SLR form with best OVF experience plus wonderful lens rendering and 16 bit process flexibility all together to make it a better choice than any other MF system to me. 

As for color and rendering: I will only speak for myself but not others.  For color, I only care about skin tone, S006 gives a mid tone richness, robustness (means you can manipulate files WB, contrast, tone mapping a lot without loss pleasing skin tone) that non of other I used can offer. For other stuff, I am mostly OK with any camera’s color. S007 is not as good in this regard INO but it is still better than all FF I used. Then, for Rendering, again I only care about WO shooting (which again mostly apply to portraits). If we stop down to f8 f11, I don’t think I care much S over others. However, that is just me. 

I don’t know others, but this is the best system for me. And I also feel this is the best system for wide aperture portraits, bar none.  

 

As for S glasses on SL, it will lose certain magic, however, it also gain consistence over corner, bokeh ball will keep round or rounder, no corner funkiness, cat eye bokeh(or less cat eye). This especially useful for video users. I used S glass on S1, they are big, but only compare to M glasses. Panasonic, Leica and Sigma art all seems huge to me. And one of best features of S glasses are real focus ring then focus by wire. For S users, I think SL2 is very attractive.  

 

[AlanD]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

@ chrismuc You can easily see that when you look at the thread in this forum on photo’s from the S, you can look at flickr for the gfx50 and the Nikon Z7 for instance, which has 47Mp too. 
 

I agree.  But the GFX100 is different from GFX50.  It isn’t just the number of pixels.  The GFX50 has small microlenses which adds digital “bite” and aliasing.  The GFX100 doesn’t have this.  The GFX100 also adds 16-bit ADC, which improves tonality even if measurements suggest that it is mostly noise.

You do want to turn down the out of camera contrast to get the most tonality out of camera.

I have owned an S006 (35/70/120S/120HC) and some of the best shots I have gotten are with the 70/S006 combo.

I have also shot with a maimya ZD (Fat pixel. 22MP) and the 5Ds with EF 50/1.0L.

But GFX100 is something special.  You lose with the EVF vs OVF but in terms of which one I would rather have, it would be the GFX100.

These are with the GFX50 in the hands of a professional.  Focus on the tonality of the clothing which is how the edit is focused.

https://thebkmag.com/2019/07/14/beauty-body-vita-mir-vogue-china-benjamin-kanarek/

https://thebkmag.com/2019/09/29/illusion-haute-couture-daniela-didenko-benjamin-kanarek-elle/

 

Dpreview outdoor portraits show the GFX100 with superior tonality to what you typically see with the GFX50.

https://m.dpreview.com/samples/3732235806/fujifilm-gfx-100-sample-gallery-dpreview-tv

 

The closest I have ever seen FF come to the S and SL is this:

https://m.dpreview.com/samples/1017773694/pentax-d-fa-50mm-f1-4-sample-gallery-updated

 

 

[albertknappmd]

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On 11/9/2019 at 1:32 PM, ropo54 said:

Is this shot with the SL2 or S? (Beautiful shot).  I'm confused by the sequence of the comments. Thanks, Rob

I used the S (007) on recent trip to southern Ireland...

Here is another one...

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[chrismuc]

I tried the S (CCD) twice but for two reasons did not invest in that system.

1. AF 

One point is very limited (portrait), the AF precision (or lack of) did not convince me, additionally no AF microadjustment.

With the Contax 645 I already use such kind of AF technology (ok that one is even older) but it is no longer satisfying, if you once used today's mirrorless multipoint super precise and quick AF systems.

2. lens selection

For my architectural work I need (wide angle) shift lenses. These do not exist for the Leica S system, even not adapted. 

https://www.christoph-kuegler.com/cityscape_guangzhou

https://www.christoph-kuegler.com/architectureguangzhou

I can use Canon TSE 17, TSE 24, Contax 645 35 w/ shift adapter, Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE, 100f3.5 w/ shift adapter on Alpa FPS + IQ180, Fujifilm GFX 50/100, Sony A7R, Canon EOS ... but not on Leica S 😞

(amount of shift depends on sensor size and image circle of lens)

I could have used these lenses on the SL but 24 MP is insufficient for large prints. Now with the SL 2 it is a different game.

Regarding colors, 'pop' and dynamic range my favourites are the Sony 50 MP CMOS sensor in the GFX 50s and the Dalsa 80 MP CCD sensor in the IQ back. The new Sony sensor in the GFX 100 is fine, somehow I feel the images of the 50s have a bit more 'pop' and 'depth' (but now I am getting esoteric :-). The Dalsa CCD is great but limited to ISO 35 and 8 seconds (higher ISO and longer exposure times create noise and reduce resolution) which is a limitation for sunset shots and the sensor is not so neutral, more difficult to adjust the colors in ACR.

The color of Sony cameras I like a bit less (a bit flat and tendency towards slightly greenish) and least preference gets Canon (a bit over saturated, somehow less natural).

Regarding user interface I prefer by a far margin the 'old fashioned' UI of the Fujifilm X-T3 (and Contax 645) with aperture ring on lens and three separate dials for exposure time, ISO and exposure compensation. GFX100 unfortunately they changed so much, Sony is getting better with every camera iteration but still a kind of PITA to use. I completely avoid to use the on screen menu, so I am fine with many customizable buttons and levels on the camera ... which is of course not exactly the Leica M/ S/ SL concept 🙂 

Pro Sony is the latest AF in the A9/A9II and  A7RIV which are really crazy quick, precise and incredible good face/eye detection and the matching Zeiss Basis and Loxia lenses which are mostly very good (ok, apart from the 135 not up to Leica L primes level ...), lightweight, not too expensive, nice design, nice feeling with the rubberised ring, cool OLED).

The SL2 is for me since long time the really very tempting Leica system. The CDAF has the advantage to be free of banding issues but of course the disadvantage of lack of speed, esp. in CAF. And for me the lack of a tiltable back screen is a pity. Basically all candid portrait shots I do from waist level, which is impossible with Leica S, SL, M cameras (you have to get on your knees ...).

For example:

Hong Kong with Fuji GFX50 + GF63.

https://www.christoph-kuegler.com/streetlife_hong-kong

So ... there is no single system to match all (personal) requirements ...

Christoph

Btw., here are the camera - lens combos of the previous child portraits.

01 Fujifilm GFX50s + Sigma 50f1.4 Art

02 Fujifilm GFX50s + Zeiss 135f2 Apo

03 Canon 1DX + Sigma 85f1.4 Art

04 Contax 645 | IQ180 + C645 80f2

05 Leica M9 + M 50f1.4 asph.

06 Fujifilm X-T3 + XF 56f1.2

 

[frame-it]

On 11/10/2019 at 10:13 AM, ocean2059 said:

where as S lenses have more pleasing look and smoother color transitions.

you described a medium format "M Lens" 😀

[ocean2059]

18 hours ago, chrismuc said:

I tried the S (CCD) twice but for two reasons did not invest in that system.

1. AF 

One point is very limited (portrait), the AF precision (or lack of) did not convince me, additionally no AF microadjustment.

With the Contax 645 I already use such kind of AF technology (ok that one is even older) but it is no longer satisfying, if you once used today's mirrorless multipoint super precise and quick AF systems.

2. lens selection

For my architectural work I need (wide angle) shift lenses. These do not exist for the Leica S system, even not adapted. 

https://www.christoph-kuegler.com/cityscape_guangzhou

https://www.christoph-kuegler.com/architectureguangzhou

I can use Canon TSE 17, TSE 24, Contax 645 35 w/ shift adapter, Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE, 100f3.5 w/ shift adapter on Alpa FPS + IQ180, Fujifilm GFX 50/100, Sony A7R, Canon EOS ... but not on Leica S 😞

(amount of shift depends on sensor size and image circle of lens)

I could have used these lenses on the SL but 24 MP is insufficient for large prints. Now with the SL 2 it is a different game.

Regarding colors, 'pop' and dynamic range my favourites are the Sony 50 MP CMOS sensor in the GFX 50s and the Dalsa 80 MP CCD sensor in the IQ back. The new Sony sensor in the GFX 100 is fine, somehow I feel the images of the 50s have a bit more 'pop' and 'depth' (but now I am getting esoteric :-). The Dalsa CCD is great but limited to ISO 35 and 8 seconds (higher ISO and longer exposure times create noise and reduce resolution) which is a limitation for sunset shots and the sensor is not so neutral, more difficult to adjust the colors in ACR.

The color of Sony cameras I like a bit less (a bit flat and tendency towards slightly greenish) and least preference gets Canon (a bit over saturated, somehow less natural).

Regarding user interface I prefer by a far margin the 'old fashioned' UI of the Fujifilm X-T3 (and Contax 645) with aperture ring on lens and three separate dials for exposure time, ISO and exposure compensation. GFX100 unfortunately they changed so much, Sony is getting better with every camera iteration but still a kind of PITA to use. I completely avoid to use the on screen menu, so I am fine with many customizable buttons and levels on the camera ... which is of course not exactly the Leica M/ S/ SL concept 🙂 

Pro Sony is the latest AF in the A9/A9II and  A7RIV which are really crazy quick, precise and incredible good face/eye detection and the matching Zeiss Basis and Loxia lenses which are mostly very good (ok, apart from the 135 not up to Leica L primes level ...), lightweight, not too expensive, nice design, nice feeling with the rubberised ring, cool OLED).

The SL2 is for me since long time the really very tempting Leica system. The CDAF has the advantage to be free of banding issues but of course the disadvantage of lack of speed, esp. in CAF. And for me the lack of a tiltable back screen is a pity. Basically all candid portrait shots I do from waist level, which is impossible with Leica S, SL, M cameras (you have to get on your knees ...).

For example:

Hong Kong with Fuji GFX50 + GF63.

https://www.christoph-kuegler.com/streetlife_hong-kong

So ... there is no single system to match all (personal) requirements ...

Christoph

Btw., here are the camera - lens combos of the previous child portraits.

01 Fujifilm GFX50s + Sigma 50f1.4 Art

02 Fujifilm GFX50s + Zeiss 135f2 Apo

03 Canon 1DX + Sigma 85f1.4 Art

04 Contax 645 | IQ180 + C645 80f2

05 Leica M9 + M 50f1.4 asph.

06 Fujifilm X-T3 + XF 56f1.2

 

Now I understand where you are coming from.  I think you will enjoy using SL2. I really like your images in the above links, particularly the Hong Kong street photos with GFX50. Sadly, recent student protests in Hong Hong have turn very violent on the streets.

[Stuart Richardson]

Just a quick note on AF, the reason that Leica does not provide AF microadjustment in the S is that the S lenses and bodies are all individually measured and provided with a value that determines how far (if at all) that individual body differs from the baseline, and the lens and body communicate with each other to counteract this discrepancy. This is unlike in most camera systems where you have an ideal and a spec. So assuming your ideal is 0, and a lens or body can be + or - 2. If you get a -2 body and +2 lens, you are off by four, leading to problems Then you can do your microadjustments to get it back to spec. With the S they talk to each other to adjust the focus back to +/- 0. Obviously it is possible for this to be off, but if it is, Leica seems to think that it is more of a repair issue than a user adjustable one. 

That said,I have found that many of the AF errors in the S system are from the deceptively large focus spot. The body is likely to pick focus on the most contrasty element within that fairly large field. I think a lot of us who have shot the S system for many years compensate for this automatically by reading focus off of larger, flat surfaces within the focal plane. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[chrismuc]

Regarding the AF topic: Sorry to sound like a Fuji ambassador in a Leica S forum, but just to mention - the AF precision of the GFX100 is just stunning.

Low light at a circus performance respectively a ballet theatre, GF 110f2 lens at open aperture. Basically every single shot is tack sharp (and with that immense resolution you can crop in like crazy).

That is what I mean in my previous post: How wants Leica compete with their upcoming Leica S version with mirrorless cameras in the high end segment like Leica SL 2, Sony A7RIV, Fujifilm GFX100 with their antiquate autofocus system (same issue for PhaseOne XF camera btw.). Really hard to attract new customers, I assume.

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[chrismuc]

sample 1

100% crop ... you can see the color of her eyes (or of her contact lenses 😉

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[chrismuc]

sample 2

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[chrismuc]

sample 2

100%

(I had to save as low level jpg due to the stupid 500kB restriction)

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Edited November 12, 2019 by chrismuc

[ZHNL]

This is not first time, and I am sure not the last time that people with other systems post their other stuffs on S forum. I am sure I can post tons of images I took with Sony, Nikon or even Leica M here to talk about flaws of S endlessly if I want. 
 

I am not sure this is a selling case for GFX. No offense and nothing personal. I think maybe a Z or Sony or any FF camera with silent shutter and with decent tracking and a long glass or tele zoom for frame flexibility and AFC reliability would be sufficient for the job.  They have even better AF. 
 

I don’t know and can’t speak for others. I personally have zero interest for GFX100 YET. If people like what S offers, they won’t choose GFX, vice versa. That is all I can say. 

We all can get specs cheap now days. GFX100 is a wonderful tool, no mistake. if it suit, I am happy for people got their dream tool. That is all I can say. 
 

Edited November 12, 2019 by ZHNL

[Joakim]

Yes I am not very interested in other brands either in this discussion and I think the question raised in this thread is very interesting for me. When I have looked at the SL2 it was to have a camera to use as a complement for some of my M lenses for more precise focusing and also the higher megapixel count but the SL2 unlike the SL also starts to feel like a very good alternative to use my 3 S lenses beside my S-006. Looking at the ISO tests done by Sean Reid there is at least a 3 stop advantage for the SL2 and add IBIS to that then I would get a much more flexible solution for hand held shooting with my S lenses. Sure, I don't get that same rendering as from the larger CCD sensor but living in Sweden the whole winter is an exercise in working in low light  so  that flexibility will be welcome.

The main downside as for many others will be the rather odd focal lengths, I currently own the 30, 70 and 120. I was so sure my interest in the SL2 was only academical but now that I realized it can be a combined tool for M and S lenses I have this itch...

 

[Flu]

I have had for many years now the S and the SL system, and although I have shot plenty of still photo's that I love with the S, I'm not sure I will be picking up the S3. If the AF is still the same/similar system, I'm going to pass on it unfortunately. To me, it doesn't matter how many pixels a sensor has or how good the IQ is if the AF cannot focus the lens consistently and reliably. I will however pick up the SL2 - pretty excited about that one!

So to answer the OP - there is 100% certainty the SL2 in my case competes for my time and my considerations about which camera I chose to pick up and head out the door with.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Flu

[otto.f]

I think it is easier to proof scientifically that people see differently with their eyes and brain, than to convince people with scientific tests that one camera system with their own lenses is better or worse than the other. If the construction team at Fuji had a Leica way of looking to the world and a Leica ideal of an image, they would make it, that’s what I think. But I stay very curious whether the S3 is going to make it with this price they have in mind. 
We had the discussion here on LUF between CCD and CMOS. My personal opinion is that the CMOS M’s have a slight bias in favor of yellow and that the M9 and M8 are more neutral in color rendering. You don’t see that in every situation, but after my trip to Thailand, where there is a lot of yellow and gold, I sold my M10, I was overfed with yellows. Now Stefan Daniel says in his latest interview that the suggested difference between CCD and CMOS is a placebo effect. Well that could be, my experience in Thailand may have set an allergy or hyperalertness in my way of looking at digital camera results. I found the results of my trip with the SL in Patagonia also too yellow. Everybody is bringing in his own history of image making into what he produces next and is looking for. So in that sense it is likely that the group of customers for the S will not shrink either. With the exception of the M5 and the M8 perhaps, there was seldom a release of a Leica camera that was not received enthusiastically.

Edited November 12, 2019 by otto.f

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[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Flu:

I have had for many years now the S and the SL system, and although I have shot plenty of still photo's that I love with the S, I'm not sure I will be picking up the S3. If the AF is still the same/similar system, I'm going to pass on it unfortunately. To me, it doesn't matter how many pixels a sensor has or how good the IQ is if the AF cannot focus the lens consistently and reliably. I will however pick up the SL2 - pretty excited about that one!

So to answer the OP - there is 100% certainty the SL2 in my case competes for my time and my considerations about which camera I chose to pick up and head out the door with.

I still love the IQ of the S and S-lenses. But like you, as a long term SL user at the same time I really appreciate face detection and also spot AF and how fast and accurate I can nail images with the SL and the SL2 shall be even better in this regard. Now add IBIS, and the new APO Summicrons, means the SL-system will be even better. For my part already today I use the SL-system very often vs the S, and I believe the percentage will grow with the SL.

I am however not ready to sell the S-system (yet?). I like the OVF and I also think if you nail focus than the rendering and color is still one step ahead of any FF-sensor. And the prices are down anyways-so why shall I sell it.