Can the new SL compete or even sostitute in some fields the S?

[setuporg]

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The SL2 may or may not sostitute with the S, but the English dictionary cannot sostitute with the word "sostitute".  Can a moderator (@HerrBarnack?) please edit the subject?:)

[setuporg]

10 hours ago, setuporg said:

The SL2 may or may not sostitute with the S, but the English dictionary cannot sostitute with the word "sostitute".  Can a moderator (@HerrBarnack?) please edit the subject?:)

@Herr Barnack ^^

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[Agent M10]

On 11/30/2019 at 11:46 AM, ropo54 said:

I was thinking of trading in one of my S lenses, and they were 'not buying'. (We never got to discussing a trade price).  When I suggested taking the lens on consignment, the answer was 'not at this time'.  Needless to say after buying my S and SL from them (along with  a fair amount of other items through the last few years) I was none too pleased with their reply.  

I traded in my two least used S lenses with Leica Miami, which helped to finance a couple of SL primes. Josh was extremely helpful, and didn't indicate any problems in accepting them in trade.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, Agent M10 said:

I traded in my two least used S lenses with Leica Miami, which helped to finance a couple of SL primes. Josh was extremely helpful, and didn't indicate any problems in accepting them in trade.

How long ago?

Jeff

[ropo54]

26 minutes ago, Agent M10 said:

I traded in my two least used S lenses with Leica Miami, which helped to finance a couple of SL primes. Josh was extremely helpful, and didn't indicate any problems in accepting them in trade.

It they are back to buying S lenses, that'd be great. I assume it was a trade on some new gear, not a flat out purchase? My approach to them was over the summer, and there was no interest. Hope things have changed.  Rob

Edited December 5, 2019 by ropo54

[Agent M10]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

How long ago?

Jeff

Hmm, I’d have to look. Purchased the 75SL and a 90SL at different times. Traded in a 180mm and a 35mm.

[ZHNL]

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Got mine! spend half hour setup the camera, no need for trying to understand anything in menu. Great support for M and S glasses. Miles better than confusing S1 in menu setup.

It didn't offer the same real marked button as Panasonic and I don't really like 6 unmarked button, no way I can remember that unless this is my only camera used for next few months, years. This is the same complain I had with Sony's c1/2/3/4. However, the body is so much cleaner and joyful to hold and use.

EVF is somehow just nicer IMHO compare to all others, though I do find 60fps give "slightly" better sharpness and clarity. I have many minor thought about its menu option improvement and hopefully get resolved in the future update but nothing major.
At least, this is first time, Leica offer state of Art in IQ department, I am waiting for high resolution mode and hopeful it remove 1s limitation of Panasonic. I personally think it make sense to stay 24M on M but leave best FF IQ to SL.

Overall, a very impressive Leica though I have to say M10 give me the same feeling compare to M240 and M9.

How I feel, it is just like compare driving a Audi/BWM and toyota/honda compare to otherwise awesome S1 and Z7 or Ax, If you know what I mean. Leica nail it this time, more than ever even Panasonic did most of hard work.

[Stuart Richardson]

I would be curious if you could now speak to the difference in image quality between the SL2 and the S...particularly in terms of color tonality and resolution...not all megapixels are created equal, as we know.

[bilbrown]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I would be curious if you could now speak to the difference in image quality between the SL2 and the S...particularly in terms of color tonality and resolution...not all megapixels are created equal, as we know.

Honestly... The S not being actual medium format does something right that I think Leica didn't really understand at the time. But in 2019-2020 we are all starting to get.

 

The S has the best per pixel color rendition of ANY Leica (or for that matter most other cameras) to the point that I often tell people if they want stills to match what an Arri Alexa does to video, I have to use my S. The original SL1 is similar. The SL2... well its different. I think that it has great color, and honestly very very good in comparison to its sister the Panasonic Lumix S1R. But its BEST downresed to 24MP. That's where it shines, why is that?

 

Because you shouldn't have a 47MP full frame camera and expect medium format quality. It's not going to happen. With the SL2 you will get something VERY COOL, and VERY DIFFERENT, and it MIGHT work for you - as it will for MOST people... but it isn't an S.

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I would be curious if you could now speak to the difference in image quality between the SL2 and the S...particularly in terms of color tonality and resolution...not all megapixels are created equal, as we know.

I have been only focus on ergo side of SL2. The overall experience is refreshing. And spec on paper is impressive at minimal this time. 

Today, I took it out for a quick spin, hopefully evaluate a little bit on M wide performance on it. I didn't put strap on it and I wouldn't say it is very comfortable to hand hold, even a hour. it feel heavy and slippery. (TBF, i don't feel S6/7 or PanaS1 in hand feel better if I don't put strap on )

With my case, I used mostly 50APO M, I can't imagine how it will feel if I put a S glasses or SL zoom on it  I did tried it with 70 and 100 S glass shortly, they AF decent fast and very accurate. 

As for color and tonality or even file quality, I would be very careful to comment before I spend some serious time with it. I know how biased this can be if not careful. If I am honest, of all MILC cameras handled, this one is the most sexy one with the most X factor and take that crown from S1, but Z7 is still the most comfortable one in term of hand hold and ergo. It is  just works, especially with 1.8S and f4 zoom.  I can't let Z7 go looks like. Without S or M glasses in bag, I am not sure I will recommend it over others. But for someone like me (I think also for many people in this forum), SL2 seems a fine choice and quite reasonably priced Leica camera. 

[bilbrown]

3 hours ago, ZHNL said:

Got mine! spend half hour setup the camera, no need for trying to understand anything in menu. Great support for M and S glasses. Miles better than confusing S1 in menu setup.

It didn't offer the same real marked button as Panasonic and I don't really like 6 unmarked button, no way I can remember that unless this is my only camera used for next few months, years. This is the same complain I had with Sony's c1/2/3/4. However, the body is so much cleaner and joyful to hold and use.

EVF is somehow just nicer IMHO compare to all others, though I do find 60fps give "slightly" better sharpness and clarity. I have many minor thought about its menu option improvement and hopefully get resolved in the future update but nothing major.
At least, this is first time, Leica offer state of Art in IQ department, I am waiting for high resolution mode and hopeful it remove 1s limitation of Panasonic. I personally think it make sense to stay 24M on M but leave best FF IQ to SL.

Overall, a very impressive Leica though I have to say M10 give me the same feeling compare to M240 and M9.

How I feel, it is just like compare driving a Audi/BWM and toyota/honda compare to otherwise awesome S1 and Z7 or Ax, If you know what I mean. Leica nail it this time, more than ever even Panasonic did most of hard work.

The MENUS in comparison to the LUMIX are AWESOME, as we would expect. The support for the glass we already have is just as awesome, the S glass I used moved faster than my 007. The EVF is badass.

Did Leica work out the firmware shit yet? I will likely wait until the firmware is a little better. 

 

As for the M10 vs M240/246, M9.. the M9 is almost unusable for how I shoot in 2019-2020. The M240/246 batter life is why I continue to use them, and they are fast enough for most things. The M10 shoots faster, feels better, has better IQ (sort of) but here is where I go with the current Leica "improvements"... like the SL2 in comparison to the S1... I don't know if the changes in physical shooting are enough to upgrade. The SL and S for that matter are STILL amazing cameras.

 

I mean honestly, is that sensor enough? Leica shoots itself in the foot with image quality and quality cameras. The others are ALREADY so good...

[ZHNL]

3 minutes ago, bilbrown said:

The MENUS in comparison to the LUMIX are AWESOME, as we would expect. The support for the glass we already have is just as awesome, the S glass I used moved faster than my 007. The EVF is badass.

Did Leica work out the firmware shit yet? I will likely wait until the firmware is a little better. 

 

As for the M10 vs M240/246, M9.. the M9 is almost unusable for how I shoot in 2019-2020. The M240/246 batter life is why I continue to use them, and they are fast enough for most things. The M10 shoots faster, feels better, has better IQ (sort of) but here is where I go with the current Leica "improvements"... like the SL2 in comparison to the S1... I don't know if the changes in physical shooting are enough to upgrade. The SL and S for that matter are STILL amazing cameras.

 

I mean honestly, is that sensor enough? Leica shoots itself in the foot with image quality and quality cameras. The others are ALREADY so good...

IQ wise, I think m10 over M240 is not much. I know M240 have banding issue if you push and overall M10 maybe have 1.5~2 stop better performance at high ISO shooting but I seldom use M at extreme high ISO. However, the user experience is significant improved over M240 which is big step forward itself compare to M9. 

SL2 give me the same feeling in this regard. However, I have to say, this time at least spec on paper with IBIS, pixels etc..it is the front runner in FF world. 

SL2 priced almost too reasonable to pass for Leica shooter. SL was not good enough for me. I demo a few times and just couldn't pull the trigger. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Thanks guys. I will certainly get the SL2 if I do not get the S3...I just do not want to be in the position of getting both...it's a bridge too far for me at the moment. It is also impossible for me to test them in person without hopping in a plane, so that is also frustrating. In the past Leica has offered to send me a demo, but when I researched it, it turns out that customs wants a full upfront payment of the VAT (which for the S is almost 5000 euros), and they only refund it after proof of return, and the refund process can take weeks or months etc. Knowing the system here, I would rather not risk it! I just wish that Leica would get one with the S3...I am so impatient, haha.

[otto.f]

14 hours ago, bilbrown said:

Leica shoots itself in the foot

More or less, but not entirely I think. As you said, the S is still another level than any fullformat. In another field,  I find the CL, for what I’ve seen, quite competitive with an M10, if you count in the versatility qua lens choice in the CL and the not so dramatic IQ gain with the M10. The CL might even be handier for street, where the M was for originally.

But from a macro perspective, the burden of economic growth on climate change and the question whether mankind and earth will survive together, these differences are completely insane of course. There is not any need to develop more camera’s with more pixels to convey valuable visual messages (apart from the fact that loading more and more pixels on a fullframe is beginning to touch the unaesthetic). One might have argued in the 90’s that digital photography was necessary to unburden the environment from chemical waste. But the amount and speed of innovation in digital cameraland is so high that this raises the question whether this burden is not much heavier now than in the time of analogue photography. What is actually the need of a Panasonic S1 a few months before an SL2? It’s nothing more than a sickness of the system.

Edited December 7, 2019 by otto.f

[Stuart Richardson]

While I think that is interesting, whether or not it is true would depend on how you look at it. Far fewer people are using full sized cameras, and far fewer things are being printed, so it is likely that there is significantly less burden on the environment than when all photographs were transmitted as prints or via books and magazines. On the other hand, the production of cell phones and the associated short life cycle and use of lots of rare metals is likely more burdensome. As for the takeup of new cameras...I think it has certainly slowed down from what it was like in the earlier days of digital. Admittedly, I do not have a huge sample size, but I notice that a lot of the photographers I work for are still using their older cameras...I still get a lot of files from Nikon D800s and D810s, Canon 5D Mark III's, Fuji XPro's and so on. I have been using my S006 for six years or so now...While it is not a spectacularly long life cycle, it is likely to extend as the technology levels out. I think it is really video that is driving a lot of upgrades now...stills are already good enough for nearly anyone in most of the cameras in the past few years.

[ZHNL]

11 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Thanks guys. I will certainly get the SL2 if I do not get the S3...I just do not want to be in the position of getting both...it's a bridge too far for me at the moment. It is also impossible for me to test them in person without hopping in a plane, so that is also frustrating. In the past Leica has offered to send me a demo, but when I researched it, it turns out that customs wants a full upfront payment of the VAT (which for the S is almost 5000 euros), and they only refund it after proof of return, and the refund process can take weeks or months etc. Knowing the system here, I would rather not risk it! I just wish that Leica would get one with the S3...I am so impatient, haha.

Hi, Stuart, I can’t speak for everyone but S attraction for me is really not pixel count given 37M is decent enough but the overall look of the image and color depth from it. I know many people talk about MF image look, but I feel it is more so with S Than even other smaller sensor size MF system because of house rendering of S glasses. 
 

In this regards, I think FF with even more pixel or sharper glass doesn’t change my preference here. SL2’s file is pretty good though, skin tone is nice and neutral.

I have a feeling S3 will not be more than $18000 most likely in $15000 range which is again reasonable like SL2. However, I won’t simply buy it for 64M sensor as I mentioned pixel is not my personal number 1 priority. With SL2 high resolution mode in the future, sure it won’t be real 187M but I bet it will still offer more detail than 64M. i will see how S3 offers in other spec such as color, AF, processor etc.
 

For me, SL2 is not replacing S but a nice bridge product to connect all my Leica glasses and other L Mount glasses. It can be 2nd body for S, it can take much wide or longer glass S miss. With IBIS, it has much wider usage window. 
 

leica nail many thing right with SL2. Call me impressed, I am not that easily pleased TBH, but this time, it is good. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by ZHNL

[tom0511]

Am 10.11.2019 um 17:20 schrieb ocean2059:

I don't disagree that you can get similar Bokeh, sharpness, micro-contrast, and resolution with different sensor sizes.  You could also discuss A/B switch comparison, in great length with sample images.  But if you look at a set of images taken with S systems (say few hundreds of images) then compared with another set taken with a Sony/Nikon/Leica SL system, I hope you will see the differences and come away with your preferences.  I have used several systems as many others here. Over the past five years, I usually take more than one camera systems with me on trips. When I looked few thousands of images of each trip, I can tell the differences. For me, images taken with Leica S system are special, perhaps not in certain performance aspects. but in overall look.  

I have the same experience. However I also feel that the new SL-primes come one step closer.

On the other side I also have the following experience: With the SL/SL2 it is much easier for me to nail focus in portraits compared to the AF of the S.

Right now I am not willing to let go the S, but the SL2+primes has now a strong position in my choice of cameras.

Edited December 11, 2019 by tom0511

[Stuart Richardson]

I am with Tom with this. Basically, I want to stay with the S, but the technology and performance of the SL2 are really enticing, and I look forward to seeing what the S3 can do. This past weekend I did another comparison of my S006 to the Panasonic S1 with the 50mm SL Summicron, and honestly they are more close than I might like, haha. Once white balance is equalized, and using the camera natural profile, the colors are really not that different. The S has higher contrast, but also less dynamic range. The S looked a bit better out of camera, which has always been a huge strength it has had over the competition. When in high resolution mode, the S1 does outresolve the S006. I even used enhance details for both files to get the best demosaicing performance, optimally sharpened both, and then upsampled the S to the same pixel dimensions using preserve details 2.0. The S1 file is smoother (fewer interpolation artifacts) and has more detail than the S. And this is the 24mp version...I imagine with the SL2, the high resolution mode would handily outresolve the S006 or S007. So at least for certain contexts, the S is no longer the resolution king of the Leica lineup. The S3 will be for single shot, but is unlikely to be for static compositions. As mentioned before, resolution is not everything, but increasingly there are fewer and fewer reasons to choose the S over a camera like the SL2 on technical grounds. It is primarily the handling, which is very important, the OVF (also very important!) and the nebulous "look", which I personally think is more reliant on lens character than sensor size...at least between 35mm and the mini medium format like the S. If we were comparing 35mm to a 6x7cm there would be no question, but as it is, it is not THAT much bigger. Consequently, the standard lenses are just slightly longer for the same perspective, so they might have a bit more separation, but it is not like using a 210mm lens on 4x5 versus a 50mm on 35mm. As Tom mentioned, the look is also rapidly closing with the SL summicrons. The SL 24-70mm zoom left me cold...it was a good zoom, but the massive size and what I found to be unexceptional edge performance (it could be the copy, or the S1 I tested it on) did not really excite me, and if was the main way to shoot the SL2, I would have no interest. But the SL Summicrons are stunning and give me basically all I want out of a lens.

Anyway, I am just rambling now. I hope the S3 comes soon and the light returns so I can stop pontificating, haha. The winds here were 40m/s (90mph/144kmph) last night, so it is not really shooting weather, though I am on my way to the pool. Thank heavens for the geothermal heating!

[tom0511]

I am not sure if the S3 will be a big advantage over the S007 for my intended use. I dont miss resolution with the S007 nor do I miss better color.

What I miss would be a more sophisticated and reliable AF and sometimes stabilization. The higher the resolution of cameras gets, the more does stabilization makes sense for me.

 

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[otto.f]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

the technology and performance of the SL2 are really enticing

It depends of course on your subjects and goals as a photographer but I don’t see that. In the last decade all the extra options and AI in camera’s has become more a burden and a distraction than an assist. I do not see that the options of the SL2 lead to images that were hitherto impossible or very difficult to make. But I’m open to examples that would illustrate this.
All these extra options are a marketing thing to keep the machines running for geeks. And in the meantime there is no serious Leica camera with something simple as a tiltable screen.

Edited December 11, 2019 by otto.f