Nikon Z6, Z7 and Leica SL ..... (merged)

[Jeff S]

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I cited before this short blog post from Puts, that between the lines, seems to imply that smaller lenses are possible, but limited by manufacturing and cost, not by some physical principles. At least that’s how I read it.

 

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/45d7e30e7b4886410b6275107d08f9b1-112.html

 

He clearly thinks Leica’s recent product strategy is off base, as he explains in another brief post...

 

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/02f7b30c3626f74cc1bafa6fc1b36922-111.html

 

Jeff

Edited September 5, 2018 by Jeff S

[dkCambridgeshire]

I cited before this short blog post from Puts, that between the lines, seems to imply that smaller lenses are possible, but limited by manufacturing and cost, not by some physical principles. At least that’s how I read it.

 

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/45d7e30e7b4886410b6275107d08f9b1-112.html

 

He clearly thinks Leica’s recent product strategy is off base, as he explains in another brief post...

 

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/02f7b30c3626f74cc1bafa6fc1b36922-111.html

 

Jeff

 

 

And what 'base' might that be … we are in 2018 .. and he writes about the old pre-digital days …   "Leica, once a company that produced workhorse cameras for discerning customers, has become a luxury manufacturer that leaves the main market to be a playing field for Sony and Nikon, and soon Canon" …   Leica had to 'change' its strategy which is why Leitz Park was built … EP should 'get with it' and embrace the digital age with all its opportunities 

 

dunk 

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[jaapv]

Yes and no. I do think he is overly critical from time to time, but does raise some valid points, which may not be popular in Leicaland.

[Jeff S]

And what 'base' might that be … we are in 2018 .. and he writes about the old pre-digital days … "Leica, once a company that produced workhorse cameras for discerning customers, has become a luxury manufacturer that leaves the main market to be a playing field for Sony and Nikon, and soon Canon" … Leica had to 'change' its strategy which is why Leitz Park was built … EP should 'get with it' and embrace the digital age with all its opportunities

 

dunk

I was referring to his later comments...

 

“The number of lens elements is no longer a sign of high quality but an indication that the designer can delegate the correction of aberrations to a large number of elements to ease the load for every element and make production more economical.More lens elements are also a sign that the computer program is in automatic mode to control the tolerances for easy manufacture.” (Puts)

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

I was referring to his later comments...

 

“The number of lens elements is no longer a sign of high quality but an indication that the designer can delegate the correction of aberrations to a large number of elements to ease the load for every element and make production more economical.More lens elements are also a sign that the computer program is in automatic mode to control the tolerances for easy manufacture.” (Puts)

 

Jeff

A bit difficult to maintain this, given the quality of the latest releases from Wetzlar, I should think

[Jeff S]

A bit difficult to maintain this, given the quality of the latest releases from Wetzlar, I should think

If I read Puts correctly, I at least wonder about his thoughts on the costs to engineer smaller solutions, and the resulting demand, even for Leica high spenders.

 

Jeff

Edited September 5, 2018 by Jeff S

[Martin B]

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And what 'base' might that be … we are in 2018 .. and he writes about the old pre-digital days …   "Leica, once a company that produced workhorse cameras for discerning customers, has become a luxury manufacturer that leaves the main market to be a playing field for Sony and Nikon, and soon Canon" …   

 

 

+1. Very true.

[pgk]

I was referring to his later comments...

 

“The number of lens elements is no longer a sign of high quality but an indication that the designer can delegate the correction of aberrations to a large number of elements to ease the load for every element and make production more economical.More lens elements are also a sign that the computer program is in automatic mode to control the tolerances for easy manufacture.” (Puts)

 

Jeff

 

The problem with this statement is that the more parts need, the higher the QC requirements. I'm not an optical designer but a friend is. He tells me that QC is expensive.

[jaapv]

If I read Puts correctly, I at least wonder about his thoughts on the costs to engineer smaller solutions, and the resulting demand, even for Leica high spenders.

 

Jeff

The problem is that so many parameters must be optimized to design a good lens that lifting out one aspect is bound to  be highly doubtful.

[jaapv]

Let's add the Canon EOS-R to this group - it should be rather competitive.

 

https://luminous-landscape.com/canon-eos-r-camera-launched/

[Jeff S]

The problem is that so many parameters must be optimized to design a good lens that lifting out one aspect is bound to be highly doubtful.

We’re told (including by Puts) that small size is the difficult part in making M lenses still optically superb. Other companies can make big and great, too; it’s doing that in a small package that’s hard... and expensive. The question is whether this premise holds for non-M AF modern lenses. Others say the constraints relate purely to physics.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

We’re told (including by Puts) that small size is the difficult part in making M lenses still optically superb. Other companies can make big and great, too; it’s doing that in a small package that’s hard... and expensive. The question is whether this premise holds for non-M AF modern lenses. Others say the constraints relate purely to physics.

 

Jeff

Of course, digital corrections add another dimension.

[Jeff S]

Of course, digital corrections add another dimension.

One that would seem to ease the challenge, at least in non-adapted situations.

 

Jeff

[dkCambridgeshire]

Let's add the Canon EOS-R to this group - it should be rather competitive.

 

https://luminous-landscape.com/canon-eos-r-camera-launched/

 

 

So I checked the Canon website's introduction https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r/   and followed the prompt to watch the video … 

 

This particular video's content and sound is awful and tells us so little about the camera ... and the gravelly voice sounds like an old fashioned gramophone in need of winding up. 

 

On a scale of 1 to 10 the video scores 10 as regards how not to produce a video … very poor marketing. 

 

 

dunk

 

EDIT: And two more awful Canon EOS R videos … https://www.dpreview.com/news/4985835462/canon-full-frame-mirrorless-system-begins-with-debut-of-eos-r   Canon's marketing team needs their bumps feeling. 

 

These videos will not sell many cameras. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[pgk]

This particular video's content and sound is awful and tells us so little about the camera.

 

Making cameras and making videos require different skill sets. A bit like Sony - making computers and other electronic consumer devices does not mean that you understand how to design an effective UI. Pity they don't all use experts when they are relevant.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Making cameras and making videos require different skill sets. A bit like Sony - making computers and other electronic consumer devices does not mean that you understand how to design an effective UI. Pity they don't all use experts when they are relevant.

 

 

 

Paul, Canon likely employ professional videographers who have the skills … but they've produced an 'Emperor's new clothes' advert which conveys so little … they've fooled Canon into thinking it's good marketing.  The videos must have cost $'000s which has to be clawed back from sales revenue i.e. within the price we pay for the camera. 

 

dunk 

Edited September 6, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[Martin B]

 

 

These videos will not sell many cameras. 

 

Let's not forget than Canon still has a dominant market position with its photo gear. This is one reason why Canon has become fairly stagnant regarding innovation (for example in sensor tech, FF MLC etc) but still many buy their prosumer cameras. Canon has the advantage of moderate price tag for decent (but often not the best) tech - and most go for the best deal out there. Even the EOS R is falling behind the Z6/7 and The Sony FF MLC lines regarding technical specs, I am sure many will buy into it - especially those who are already vested in Canon lens gear. In the long term this is a dangerous game to play for Canon since their tech basis is deteriorating, but for now this money machine is still working reasonably well. This said, I stopped vesting into Canon gear about 7 years ago when I realized that Canon lost its FF sensor leadership position against Nikon/Sony. It wasn't before I jumped onto the A7R (which I am still using) that I vested into rangefinder M lenses - my first Leica film camera came years later. I see FF MLC clearly as the future in cameras, but I likely will never be convinced to press the trigger for a digital Leica M or SL since their price tags are simply much too high for my taste (even I could afford). 

[BernardC]

Canon has delivered what their customers want: a mirrorless 5D. Anybody who uses a 5D can pick-up an R and be productive from day 1.

No point poring over minor implementation details, they know what sells.

[Martin B]

Canon has delivered what their customers want: a mirrorless 5D. Anybody who uses a 5D can pick-up an R and be productive from day 1.

No point poring over minor implementation details, they know what sells.

 

More like a slightly evolved 6D MkII, but not a mirrorless 5D MkIV. Might be decent and sufficient for some and not to consider for others. 

I am sure it will sell decently well, but I also believe it will be less in demand compared to equivalent Z6 and A7 III models. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[BernardC]

More like a slightly evolved 6D MkII

You are correct. It doesn't have a control wheel at the back, so it's more 6D than 5D, but that's a subtle distinction. To a Canon shooter, it's like coming home again, and it will work better with their EOS lenses than the Sony A7's ever did. I see a lot of video shooters using Sony A7s and A6xxx's professionally, but they always seem to put Canon lenses on them, for whatever reason. I'm not sure it's a big market niche in the greater scheme of things, but surely Canon will get some sales from that crowd.