Nikon Z6, Z7 and Leica SL ..... (merged)

[Martin B]

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You are correct. It doesn't have a control wheel at the back, so it's more 6D than 5D, but that's a subtle distinction. To a Canon shooter, it's like coming home again, and it will work better with their EOS lenses than the Sony A7's ever did. I see a lot of video shooters using Sony A7s and A6xxx's professionally, but they always seem to put Canon lenses on them, for whatever reason. I'm not sure it's a big market niche in the greater scheme of things, but surely Canon will get some sales from that crowd.

 

I agree - I am also still using my EF lenses on my A7R (other than third party manual focus lenses like Canon FD and M-mount lenses for example). I believe reason for this is the high price tag for Sony FE glass - IMO Canon L lens glass has a better/more rigid lens body than the plastic-built Sony lens body style. But for best AF performance, Sony users have to rely on Sony glass - I can compromise here since I rarely need fast AF or AF at all. Not so sure if the EOS R has such good video capabilities compared to other brands, but both Canon and Nikon have lots of room for improvement in the next gen of their FF MLCs (and also Sony should do so especially with pressure from Canon/Nikon to improve for example their menu structure, currently cumbersome firmware update procedure etc). I am just glad that more options are out there now which break Sony's FF MLC price monopoly - better for us consumers. It might also lead to a bit lower Leica SL prices, but I doubt it will get even close to a range what the big brands offer.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Martin B

[Ko.Fe.]

Let's not forget than Canon still has a dominant market position with its photo gear. This is one reason why Canon has become fairly stagnant regarding innovation (for example in sensor tech, FF MLC etc) but still many buy their prosumer cameras. Canon has the advantage of moderate price tag for decent (but often not the best) tech - and most go for the best deal out there. Even the EOS R is falling behind the Z6/7 and The Sony FF MLC lines regarding technical specs, I am sure many will buy into it - especially those who are already vested in Canon lens gear. In the long term this is a dangerous game to play for Canon since their tech basis is deteriorating, but for now this money machine is still working reasonably well. This said, I stopped vesting into Canon gear about 7 years ago when I realized that Canon lost its FF sensor leadership position against Nikon/Sony. It wasn't before I jumped onto the A7R (which I am still using) that I vested into rangefinder M lenses - my first Leica film camera came years later. I see FF MLC clearly as the future in cameras, but I likely will never be convinced to press the trigger for a digital Leica M or SL since their price tags are simply much too high for my taste (even I could afford).

I agree to the most of it.

 

IMHO, Canon SLR, DSLR customers share is so huge, we need no video to sell us EOS R. All we need is already known, which is price and EF, EF-S lenses full compatibility.

I'm still using Canon consumer SLR and DSLR, my daughter is using Canon FF refurbished DSLR professionally. And nothing could beat Canon where we are. They have fast, affordable local service.

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[Mr.Q]

Agreed, professional service from Canon/Nikon is leaps and bounds beyond what Sony and Leica can offer. Quick (next day) turnarounds, equipment loans, and on-site field support are a MUST for many pro's.

[jaapv]

I agree to the most of it.

 

IMHO, Canon SLR, DSLR customers share is so huge, we need no video to sell us EOS R. All we need is already known, which is price and EF, EF-S lenses full compatibility.

I'm still using Canon consumer SLR and DSLR, my daughter is using Canon FF refurbished DSLR professionally. And nothing could beat Canon where we are. They have fast, affordable local service.

AFAIK the Canon 5D is still the most used DSLR for (professional) video. Hardly a market Canon can afford to neglect. 

Looking at non-professional wildlife photography, 95% used to be Canon. Nowadays Nikon is the major brand one sees. 

I'm sure that it is not as clear-cut as you say.

[Martin B]

AFAIK the Canon 5D is still the most used DSLR for (professional) video. Hardly a market Canon can afford to neglect. 

Looking at non-professional wildlife photography, 95% used to be Canon. Nowadays Nikon is the major brand one sees. 

I'm sure that it is not as clear-cut as you say.

 

I once again have to agree with jaapv. I could clearly see that people switched more to Nikon compared to Canon in earlier years - especially beginners. I believe Canon got a bad rep after they became quite stagnant in innovation (for example sensor tech). Still price-wise, Canon is often the best option out there for entry-level cameras. Canon also seems to have kept its dominant position in sports photography with long tele lenses. Landscape shooters left more to Nikon and Sony instead. 

[thighslapper]

With mobile cameras decimating the casual photography market you are only left with enthusiasts and a small professional market.

 

The latter tend to be heavily invested in a brand and have a different set of needs and regard cameras tools that need to be reliable and consistent.

 

Enthusiasts tend to chase specifications and are generally unfaithful, willing to dump their latest darling for an enticing new model and often change systems completely .......

 

Both Nikon and Canon's new offerings are clearly chasing this group of suckers ..... with a genuine Pro Mirrorless at some stage in the future. 

 

Of course, no Leica users would ever consider behaving like the typical 'enthusiast' ..... we are all far too sensible and mature for that sort of behaviour ........

[Ko.Fe.]

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I once again have to agree with jaapv. I could clearly see that people switched more to Nikon compared to Canon in earlier years - especially beginners. I believe Canon got a bad rep after they became quite stagnant in innovation (for example sensor tech). Still price-wise, Canon is often the best option out there for entry-level cameras. Canon also seems to have kept its dominant position in sports photography with long tele lenses. Landscape shooters left more to Nikon and Sony instead.

 

Sorry, I'm not into wildlife photography. We recently have bear next to country parliament and I regularly see coyotes from our backyard windows. Same for landscapes, we are at Niagara escarpment directly visible. I'm not into something regularly seen.

I could only comment on what I see in people's hands during local events. Would it be sports, school graduation, zoo and parks.

Canon DSLRs still dominates here after mobile phones. In Toronto which is trying to distance itself from the rest of Ontario I see more and more non Leica film users and non Leica mirrorless users. It is crowded city, they need something smaller to squeeze it into thier living cells.

[sdw]

Agreed, professional service from Canon/Nikon is leaps and bounds beyond what Sony and Leica can offer. Quick (next day) turnarounds, equipment loans, and on-site field support are a MUST for many pro's.

 

 

You can get this for the S system for the low, low price of several thousand dollars. 

[mmradman]

You can get this for the S system for the low, low price of several thousand dollars.

 

+1

 

Also have 100% backup, S cameras and lenses, few grand for professional support on top is cheap.

 

As this is SL thread I must say that my SL601 worked flawlessly from day one, fingers crossed. I can’t say the same about Leica M cameras I have/had, both film and digital. I would by default be weary of enything electronic provided by Leica, only reason I tolerate risk of sudden stoppage is to be able to use MF lenses with native camera, this may change once we learn more about Z range. I never had any reliability issues with Nikon DSLRs or film SLRs.

[darylgo]

+1

 

Also have 100% backup, S cameras and lenses, few grand for professional support on top is cheap.

 

As this is SL thread I must say that my SL601 worked flawlessly from day one, fingers crossed. I can’t say the same about Leica M cameras I have/had, both film and digital. I would by default be weary of enything electronic provided by Leica, only reason I tolerate risk of sudden stoppage is to be able to use MF lenses with native camera, this may change once we learn more about Z range. I never had any reliability issues with Nikon DSLRs or film SLRs.

 

+1 for glitch-free electronics on the SL, that's been my experience also.  The S and M both suffer occasional hiccups, nothing monumental but I don't shoot professionally so it is inconvenient at worse.  There has been talk that Panasonic provided the SL electronics, this might be the difference.  If so, kudos to Leica for aligning with a company that could give them reliability.  

[sdw]

+1 for glitch-free electronics on the SL, that's been my experience also.  The S and M both suffer occasional hiccups, nothing monumental but I don't shoot professionally so it is inconvenient at worse.  There has been talk that Panasonic provided the SL electronics, this might be the difference.  If so, kudos to Leica for aligning with a company that could give them reliability.  

 

 

Yeah, it's a solid piece of kit. That being said, I'd really like a pro plan like the S and the accessories that come with that. 

[pgk]

Agreed, professional service from Canon/Nikon is leaps and bounds beyond what Sony and Leica can offer. Quick (next day) turnarounds, equipment loans, and on-site field support are a MUST for many pro's.

 

Nonsense! You clearly are not registered with Leica's professional services - they are by far the best that I've (very infrequently) had to use. Turnaround is very fast and repairs are completed well. I could contrast this with Nikon and Canon (slow, independent) and Sony simply haven't bothered to respond when I asked them about joining their scheme. Most require ownership of several 'pro' cameras and lenses - as far as I am aware Leica consider all their system bodies/lenses to be 'pro' .

Edited September 11, 2018 by pgk

[jaapv]

Yeah, it's a solid piece of kit. That being said, I'd really like a pro plan like the S and the accessories that come with that.

Leica does offer express service and will provide loaners -at their discretion-  in case they are needed. 

[mmradman]

Leica does offer express service and will provide loaners -at their discretion-  in case they are needed. 

Considering the premium price we pay for the equipment, support ought to be egalitarian, at least one can wish for.

 

Last & only time i had to repair user error damaged AF Nikkor zoom I phoned Nikon UK and explained the problem, I was advised what needs to be done and when required part will be made available (from Japan).  Agreed the repair with insurer and only than sent lens for a repair on Monday and got it back on Thursday that same week.

 

I am just an enthusiast user but i like to have reliable camera equipment. My solution is to use equipment that is reliable by default,i.e. manual focus lenses and two digital cameras based on different platforms - M246 & SL601. 

 

I could see SL601 and Z7 working side by side sharing ZF and R lenses via appropriate adaptors, plus getting new Nikon S zooms to work on the Z camera.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Considering the premium price we pay for the equipment, support ought to be egalitarian, at least one can wish for.

 

Last & only time i had to repair user error damaged AF Nikkor zoom I phoned Nikon UK and explained the problem, I was advised what needs to be done and when required part will be made available (from Japan).  Agreed the repair with insurer and only than sent lens for a repair on Monday and got it back on Thursday that same week.

 

I am just an enthusiast user but i like to have reliable camera equipment. My solution is to use equipment that is reliable by default,i.e. manual focus lenses and two digital cameras based on different platforms - M246 & SL601. 

 

I could see SL601 and Z7 working side by side sharing ZF and R lenses via appropriate adaptors, plus getting new Nikon S zooms to work on the Z camera.

 

 

In my experience Leica Mayfair will offer a fast repair if it's something they can do 'in house' … they can repair some Leica camera bodies so worth approaching them … lenses might require sending to Wetzlar.

 

dunk 

[mmradman]

In my experience Leica Mayfair will offer a fast repair if it's something they can do 'in house' … they can repair some Leica camera bodies so worth approaching them … lenses might require sending to Wetzlar.

 

dunk 

Its good to know, my concern is not minor mechanical fix but work that involves lifting the bonnet up. 

 

Last time i had to re-map the sensor on M240 it was a trip to Germany and it took best part of a month.  Yes, camera was mechanically checked and cleaned and adjusted but non of those things were critical and mapping fix shouldn't take more than minutes.

[pgk]

Considering the premium price we pay for the equipment, support ought to be egalitarian, at least one can wish for.

 

Most 'pro' support requires a considerable investment in equipment from its customers in order to take advantage of such support ('pro' level gear is not cheap from any). No manufacturer seems to offer egalitarian support so why single out Leica?

[mmradman]

Most 'pro' support requires a considerable investment in equipment from its customers in order to take advantage of such support ('pro' level gear is not cheap from any). No manufacturer seems to offer egalitarian support so why single out Leica?

Don't accept that.

Not putting Leica on the spot only sharing my service experience, they could and should do better.

[pgk]

Don't accept that.

Not putting Leica on the spot only sharing my service experience, they could and should do better.

 

My service experience from other 'major' manufacturers has not been good at times so its probably down to individual cases rather than across the board. My experience with Leica has been second to none though.

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[jaapv]

Considering the premium price we pay for the equipment, support ought to be egalitarian, at least one can wish for.

 

Last & only time i had to repair user error damaged AF Nikkor zoom I phoned Nikon UK and explained the problem, I was advised what needs to be done and when required part will be made available (from Japan).  Agreed the repair with insurer and only than sent lens for a repair on Monday and got it back on Thursday that same week.

 

I am just an enthusiast user but i like to have reliable camera equipment. My solution is to use equipment that is reliable by default,i.e. manual focus lenses and two digital cameras based on different platforms - M246 & SL601. 

 

I could see SL601 and Z7 working side by side sharing ZF and R lenses via appropriate adaptors, plus getting new Nikon S zooms to work on the Z camera.

Calling for a pro service, yet wishing for an egalitarian one? I can see a contradiction there. At least Leica will try their utmost to help pros and amateurs equally in need.

In my case, when my M240 sensor died a week before an extended trip into Africa, I was extremely happy that Leica pulled a new M240 off the assembly line and shipped it overnight as a loaner.