M10 M-D

[Dr No]

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If 1993 is the stone age then the digital cameras you are using today must be Jurassic.

All digital cameras are based on 1976 technology and have the same inherent flaws as they did then. These inherent flaws have not just evaporated or vanished. They have been improved in time and are of course much better. If you'd actually read my comment you'd see I wasn't suggesting they were the same.

It may pay one particular person here to learn a little of the fundamental properties of their "latest" digital cameras before shooting your mouth off and very rudely Direct Messaging me swearing at and insulting me. Apparently "all you old guys have outdated knowledge and are ruining his beautiful forum with conceited behaviour "  Who knew?

All a matter of perspectives. my children think the year 2000 is ancient and of course know everything there is to know too.

[Dr No]

I really dislike the fake film winder and can not get over that one.

But I do like that exposure compensation, on/off/wifi dial. If only it were possible to somehow incorporate it with the standard model.

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[SMAL]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb pico:

Perhaps we should also put a posting limit based upon the birth date of contributors. See how silly it can become?

 

You missed my point by miles or simply tried to manipulate others into believing something I said, which I didn’t. 

We talk about digital photography and 1993 is indeed Stone Age of technology. 

If you believe nothing has changed in 25 years, then good morning and welcome to the new century. But let’s cut this off topic bullshit.

[IkarusJohn]

The only thing that has changed in the relatively recent period of 25 years of photography is that digital capture has caught up with film. The basic concept and “fundamentals” haven’t changed one bit ...

[Eoin]

What hasn't changed in 25 years is a Leica user's passion and adherence to what they hold as sacrosanct.

Except perhaps .... 12 years ago when Leica managed to shoe horn a digital sensor into a Leica M ... since then its been nothing but conflicting arguments about the technology ... not photography.🙄

 

[SiOnara]

On 10/24/2018 at 8:44 PM, Outdoorimages said:

The thumb rest - having shot so much film with M3's and MP's I love that my thumb can rest on this lever, just like the film cameras.  Again, its a choice to use or not.  For me, it is consistency.  I know I'll hear backlash for this, but I would have loved it to wind with some resistance even if it did nothing.  It is habit to shoot and wind the lever for me and it keeps my hands doing something, so part of the creative process. I am sure I'm in the minority, but I love it along with the film body size.

 

 

Agree. The film advance lever has been part of the M's ergonomic DNA from the start. 1) it advances the film. 2) it is used as a grip. 

It kinda reminds me of what Apple did with the crown on the Apple Watch. They took something traditional, on practically every watch and turned it into a modern functional input device.  

I've used thumb grips before on my M's and they are ok but take up the hot shoe which is not great if you want to use flash or an EVF. 

This seems like an obvious, practical design choice. Good on you Leica.

[davidmknoble]

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On 10/25/2018 at 3:44 PM, mdemeyer said:

Perhaps I’m alone in this but I don’t love the controls on the back of this.  I use a half case and would have preferred to be able to cover the back completely.  The top is exposed already and could have handled an on-off switch and exposure compensation with thumbwheel as the M10.

I like the half cases also. But, the case I have for my M6 has a circle in the back as do ones for the MP because the ISO setting is on the back of the camera.  That has been a long-time place for controls, even if only information (M3, e.g.).  My half case for the MD 262 has the same circle in it. 

What I do like is that, even with a larger circle in the back, it should be fine bouncing around on my hip and I won't worry about scratching an LCD...

[Dr No]

1 hour ago, SMAL said:

You missed my point by miles or simply tried to manipulate others into believing something I said, which I didn’t. 

We talk about digital photography and 1993 is indeed Stone Age of technology. 

If you believe nothing has changed in 25 years, then good morning and welcome to the new century. But let’s cut this off topic bullshit.

You are wrong. The very latest cameras and sensors available today use the same 42 year old technology to turn physical properties into digital information and they still have the exact same core flaws they always did but are today much better at dealing with them.

[mmradman]

You are of course right, things didn’t change much. Let’s recognise that first digital sensors had hundreds or maybe odd thousand off pixels at best while current ones measure in tens of mega pixels.  Quantum physics, Bayer mask and processing principles were same than as today, but we have in the meantime Foveon and Monochrom sensor, higher efficency photocells.  Principles of photographic exposure remain and will remain constant.

Time to stop bickering and be nice to each other.

[HELM]

I wasn't completely sure I could live without occaisional chimping. Turns out it`s not like quitting smoking where I felt the need every 10 minutes. I bought the camera (now will sell my M10) and spent a few hours shooting and I only checked my phone for results the first few times. I then relaxed and became a photographer again happy to see my results later. Love the feel of the back of the camera. The collapsable thumb rest (lever to those who want to rant) works like my add-on M10 thumb rest BUT does not dig into my back when the camera is slung over my shoulder like the fixed M10 did. Fotos works adequately and there is no doubt with Leica supporting all their cameras with Fotos new features will appear. Loved downloading directly into Lightroom CC on my Android

Well done Leica

[pico]

4 hours ago, SMAL said:

You missed my point by miles or simply tried to manipulate others into believing something I said, which I didn’t. 

We talk about digital photography and 1993 is indeed Stone Age of technology. 

If you believe nothing has changed in 25 years, then good morning and welcome to the new century. But let’s cut this off topic bullshit.

I believe no such thing. Talk about manipulation.  Thanks to a generous budget and my position I was given the newest tech available every year and in 1994 (I think) I was given an Apple QuickTake 100. Fun, but I knew it was just a start.

[NigelG]

I must be one of the few who bought a QuickTake 100 with my own money.

Funny to be reminded that neither my first nor last purchased digital  camera (M-D 262) has a screen....

Edited October 27, 2018 by NigelG

[paorin]

2 hours ago, Dr No said:

But the contentious subject is of white balances and the M10's inability to easily access such settings. I think that is one of the only functions missing that presents a problem for some who value and or require optimum image quality and colour. The M-D concept is otherwise a good one which I like (without that dreaded film advance).

My opinion is WB setting should be accessible easily without a phone.

The white balance setting doesn’t affect at all the raw file captured by the sensor. So if you shoot DNG you should not worry about the white balance setting of the camera.

[Chris]

39 minutes ago, paorin said:

The white balance setting doesn’t affect at all the raw file captured by the sensor. So if you shoot DNG you should not worry about the white balance setting of the camera.

I can confirm this. I've had the same experience with Leicas, Fujis and Canons.

[Chris]

3 hours ago, HELM said:

I wasn't completely sure I could live without occaisional chimping. Turns out it`s not like quitting smoking where I felt the need every 10 minutes. I bought the camera (now will sell my M10) and spent a few hours shooting and I only checked my phone for results the first few times. I then relaxed and became a photographer again happy to see my results later. Love the feel of the back of the camera. The collapsable thumb rest (lever to those who want to rant) works like my add-on M10 thumb rest BUT does not dig into my back when the camera is slung over my shoulder like the fixed M10 did. Fotos works adequately and there is no doubt with Leica supporting all their cameras with Fotos new features will appear. Loved downloading directly into Lightroom CC on my Android

Well done Leica

It seems some people in the US already received the first M10-Ds.

Enjoy and thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[raizans]

Will Leica Stores provide an iPhone next to the M10-D for customers to test the practicality of using the Fotos app?

It’s sad that the lever isn’t ratcheted so that it resets automatically. I wonder what the shorter lever feels like.

I also agree that Leica’s service needs to be greatly improved. It’s current state lends credence to accusations that Leica is a male jewelry company rather than a professional camera company!

[mmradman]

Considering Leicas association with Huwei I think that would be mobile phone of choice.  Apple on the other hand likes to sell own products in its own mega stores.  Interesting thought, what camera brand would Apple agree to sell in own stores?

[Dr No]

1 hour ago, paorin said:

The white balance setting doesn’t affect at all the raw file captured by the sensor. So if you shoot DNG you should not worry about the white balance setting of the camera.

In general we find this to be true on the internet and you will no doubt find this opinions simply on amateur writings however the reality is more complex so much so that it is easier for the manufacturers to just say "don't worry about it trust us". Yeah right.  The raw file is not altered, no. But the way in which it is read is and the table from which it is deciphered is a complex collection of data and the wavelength data is not linear,uniform or universal across luminant sources. The original raw data is attached with profile by the manufacturer and often placed the standard defined MakerNote tag, which is used by camera manufacturers to store camera settings not listed in the Exif standard, such as individual parameters and profilings. The tag contents are proprietary and manufacturer-specific and can be difficult to retrieve this information from an image or to properly preserve it when rewriting an image. Manufacturers often encrypt much this data also.

this is why we see such different results through different RAW developers.

one of the reasons Phase One is so expensive is not simply for the hardware or designs, the same sensors and CFA's can be found in other cameras, but it is the individual profiling through such a wide range of circumstances and lighting conditions that it boggles the brains (i think is the saying?)

however, we all have different levels of application and accpetability. I would suggest hat for the average user of an M10-D they will not need the colour accuracy that some require.

[Dr No]

It is why also some scientific applications run profiles for not only individual source lights but reprofiled for indivdual bulbs.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ramarren]

21 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Excuse the clip.  Interesting perspective, Godfrey.

I can’t help but feel that once you’ve set whatever you need to set, if you don’t need to use the EVF, what do you have that is really different to the M60 or the M-D(262)?  I agree the lever was a surprise, and I’m not yet convinced by those who say it is a great addition.  But we’ll wait and see.

What I find interesting is that, in the hand this is an M in all its form and function.  If you’re not fiddling with your iPhone and don’t use the EVF, what are you left with?  An M10-P without an LCD - perfect.

The objections and heat strike me as conceptual, rather than real.

(bolded1) Not a lot, if you don't use the EVF. 

(bolded2) Well, in this case, you now have an M10-P for which none of the configuration controls are available unless you use your smartphone. If you stated, "... If you're not fiddling with the configuration and don't use the EVF, what are you left with? an M10-P without an LCD or the control buttons that surround it - perfect," I agree completely. 

I tend to set my camera up for use and then not change anything but ISO, aperture, and shutter speed for long periods of time, so the M-D and this M10-D will operate pretty much the same in my use. I also tend to use DNG only most of the time, so configuration controls for JPEG output are usually left at the defaults or forgotten. 

I was out shooting with the Leica R6.2 today and tried leaving the lever out and using it as a thumb rest. Sorry, it doesn't work for me at all: it just gets in the way. If I buy an M10-D, it will be removed, no question.