M10 M-D

[Dr No]

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6 minutes ago, SMAL said:

I can´t speak for CCD sensor Leicas since I only own the Leica Q and the M10. Besides these I owned several Canons from T3i over, 6D, 5D Mark II, Mark III, 6D Mark II. I also own a Fuji X100T and also own and use a Sony A7III and A7rIII. I also have edited this thousands of RAW files from Nikon D610. D750 and D800 and ALL of them behave the same regarding white balance. Even when the camera goes way too cold there is no color shift or anything. And of course this all refers to shooting RAW.

Do you have by any chance a raw file you could share from your M9 for example that shows this issue? I´d love to see it.

This way of white balances has always been since my first workings in digital capture in 1993 with Kodak DCS 200, do you know it?

 

[ramarren]

Returning to the thumb rest kerfuffle for a moment: I bought a Leica R6.2 on an impulse recently, just thought it would be nice to have the last ever mechanical Leica R camera to shoot with occasionally. That's brought me to pull out my Leicaflex SL as well as the R6.2 and run film through them to get their feel back into my hands and head. 

The Leicaflex SL wind lever has the perfect operation. Folded, the meter is off and it's flush with the back of the camera, does not occlude where my thumb rests on the body or the shutter speed selector. Pulled to the stand-off position, it stands well proud of the body, doesn't get in the way of where my thumb rests, and is ready for me to operate the film advance quickly when needed. My thumb is only on it when it's time to wind the film. Beautiful design. 

The R6.2 is a more compact body with less space to afford the hand a good grip. The wind lever is shorter and more tightly placed, doesn't affect the meter on/off state. In the ready position, it's almost in the way, but since it doesn't affect use of the body without a motor winder fitted I just leave it folded when shooting, and fit the winder or drive when I need fast film advance. It never gets in the way of the shutter speed selector either when in the stand-off or folded positions, although it does occlude the ability to turn the meter off with the switch when folded. A very good design for the tighter confines of the camera. 

More than that, on the R6.2 there's a little shaped lump-thing on the back of the camera that fits the side of my thumb nicely and provides a very secure hold point. It doesn't catch on anything slipping in and out of a bag, or on my jacket, or anything like that, and it's hardly noticeable until you pick up the camera and feel your hand settle into its shape. That's what I'd have preferred Leica to do with the M10-D if they wanted to make the camera more secure to grip and hold steadily. 

onwards... 

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[SMAL]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Dr No:

This way of white balances has always been since my first workings in digital capture in 1993 with Kodak DCS 200, do you know it?

 

We don´t talk about cameras from 1993 which is like stone age of technology. It´s about raw capabilities and these have changed drastically in the past few years.

[neekon]

Hey all,

     I have been reading through this thread, the positives and negatives, and I wanted to weight in as I was extremely lucky to be able to get an M10-D on the day it was announced at my Local Boutique, so I have first hand experience with the camera, that I paid for and was not given to me by Leica to review.   

    I have always loved the M-D concept, had and loved the first one, knew I would want the sequel.   And having shot the M10 and M10-P since their respectively launches, I can say that the M10-D feels like coming home.   I read a lot of you hating on the thumb lever, and while I agree it wouldve been nice to have it do more, it does what it was designed to do very well.  I have never used a thumbs-up on any of my cameras, never liked the feel, or having a metal piece sticking into my back, so for me this implementation is ideal.  I can use it when I want to, and when I don't it is aesthetically pleasing.   I may be the only one, but I like the aesthetic of the lever there.  I like the look, I may be the only one, but I love the look of the M3,M2,M4,M4-P, M-A, M-P.  They are beautiful cameras, not that the digital Ms are not, but the top plate where the advance lever should be always felt empty or naked to me.  It needed something, and now it has something, and it looks great in person, and works great in person, for its intended purpose.   

    On to the Wifi and App.   I turned on the wifi when I first got the camera, synced it via the QR code in the bottom plate, changed the settings I wanted changing, and havent really used the app since.  I am sure in the coming days, weeks and months I will use it more, but once the initial settings are set, I turned off the Wifi and just shot, like I would shoot any other camera.  The wifi doesn't need to be on all the time, so why drain the battery if you aren't using it.  If I stop for a coffee and want to see some photos, sure I will use the app and its super convenient.  Switch the Wifi on, once its on, go to app, and look at the pictures,  when done looking, disconnect camera, turn off wifi and go about your day shooting.   I always found with the LCD I was tempted to use the screen, to check every single shot, to not trust the meter, to not learn the meter.  Without it, you need to trust your instincts more and learn more and grow more.   I also think they can add features to the app a lot more easily than adding features to the camera.  So for anyone scared of the app/wifi integration, I would say, not to worry about it.  The camera works amazingly without it, and when you want to use it you can.  

 

   In conclusion, I think that this is the best digital M I have owned, and I have owned damn near all of them(M8.2, M9, M240, M-E, M9M, M-D(262), MM246, M10, M10-P, M10-D).   I am have found that it is 95-99% what I want in a digital M.  the 1-5% missing would be the advance lever actually cock the shutter, or the ISO dial being on the back and the ExpComp being where the ISO is now. However,  I can overlook that 1-5% for the experience the camera gives me, for the images it produces and the joy I have with ever photo I take.   If any of are you on the fence about it, go and handle it in the store, you will not be disappointed.  

 

[Photon42]

34 minutes ago, neekon said:

 the ISO dial being on the back and the ExpComp being where the ISO is now. 

Exactly my thoughts. the ISO dial on the 262 M-D is just gorgeous to look at. And easier to handle, too.

[neekon]

10 minutes ago, Photon42 said:

Exactly my thoughts. the ISO dial on the 262 M-D is just gorgeous to look at. And easier to handle, too.

I agree as I mentioned, however I do notice that with the M10 method. I am changing the ISO less and treating the ISO more like film and shoot only one all day and one all night 

[Dr No]

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1 hour ago, SMAL said:

We don´t talk about cameras from 1993 which is like stone age of technology. It´s about raw capabilities and these have changed drastically in the past few years.

It's more about being naive.

[SMAL]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Dr No:

It's more about being naive.

It’s more about technical knowledge. If you don’t burn out any color Chanel when your white balance is really, really far off, then there is no lost data at all. We can now go back and forth or you can simply provide some raw files that prove your point, which you 100% can’t.

[Dr No]

18 minutes ago, SMAL said:

It’s more about technical knowledge. If you don’t burn out any color Chanel when your white balance is really, really far off, then there is no lost data at all. We can now go back and forth or you can simply provide some raw files that prove your point, which you 100% can’t.

Yes, it really is about technical knowledge but it's also a combination of application and experience but I was trying to be more polite. I must remember I was a naive fool once too. You say such silly things with such certainty and it is very entertaining.

[SMAL]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb Dr No:

Yes, it really is about technical knowledge but it's also a combination of application and experience but I was trying to be more polite. I must remember I was a naive fool once too. You say such silly things with such certainty and it is very entertaining.

You seem to be very cocky while you spread false bullshit. 

[Dr No]

Just now, SMAL said:

You seem to be very cocky while you spread false bullshit. 

False bullshit learned from a degree in photography and many decades of experience as a professional?

You say if no no colour channel is burned then no data is lost. But what makes you think all the data is there to begin with?

[ramarren]

As I reflect on this thread and all the many words and ideas in it, it occurs to me that the M10-D is a bit different in concept and notion from the M Edition 60 and M-D typ 262. 

The M Edition 60 was a commemorative special, to honor 60 years of the Leica M, and the attempt was to build a special that was as close to an M3 was in its minimalistic essence as possible. As a very limited run, special edition, it was never expected to sell many units at the very elevated price for a complete package, and of course it was likely considered to be purchased mainly as a collectible and used rarely.

But the minimalistic camera concept was so appealing to many who might have bought such a body at a lower price that it inspired Leica to make the M-D typ 262. Now that camera was a much easier to develop "take a 262 standard production body, remove all but the minimums in configuration, remove the LCD and all the now unnecessary buttons and controls—much like the ME60—for those that wanted such a camera and who meant to use it like they would any standard production camera. The M-D sold well for a special, and a limited feature model, but the draw in this day and age is features and the M-D lacks many features that the market seems to not want to let go of. 

The M10-D at its essence is much more a standard M10-P model, with most of the M10-P feature set, lacking only the LCD and associated button controls necessary to configure all the inner workings of the M10-P. The crux of the user experience gained by a camera without LCD, buttons, and setting distractions is thus achieved, and all the settings functions of the M10 are deferred to an app that communicates with the body when reconfiguration is desired, or review of images in storage is required. But the notion isn't the minimalism posed by the ME60 or M-D262, the notion is a full featured camera that doesn't have the issues that LCD and button controls crowding the surfaces of the body pose, and the distractions thereof. 

As I've said before, I am very glad I have the M-D262. If I buy another M as companion to it, I can accept the M10-D, or M10-P, or M10 all of them from this perspective, and probably prefer the M10-D because I'll find its less cluttered body easier to hold and more familiar to me. It's closer to the M camera paradigm that I've lived with for most of my life. 

However, the "thumb rest" will still have to go. Ten minutes with a Dremel Moto Tool and it's history.  

[jmr237]

32 minutes ago, Dr No said:

Yes, it really is about technical knowledge but it's also a combination of application and experience but I was trying to be more polite. I must remember I was a naive fool once too. You say such silly things with such certainty and it is very entertaining.

Come on, there’s no need for this. It ruins things for everyone.

[jmr237]

3 minutes ago, ramarren said:

As I reflect on this thread and all the many words and ideas in it, it occurs to me that the M10-D is a bit different in concept and notion from the M Edition 60 and M-D typ 262. 

The M Edition 60 was a commemorative special, to honor 60 years of the Leica M, and the attempt was to build a special that was as close to an M3 was in its minimalistic essence as possible. As a very limited run, special edition, it was never expected to sell many units at the very elevated price for a complete package, and of course it was likely considered to be purchased mainly as a collectible and used rarely.

But the minimalistic camera concept was so appealing to many who might have bought such a body at a lower price that it inspired Leica to make the M-D typ 262. Now that camera was a much easier to develop "take a 262 standard production body, remove all but the minimums in configuration, remove the LCD and all the now unnecessary buttons and controls—much like the ME60—for those that wanted such a camera and who meant to use it like they would any standard production camera. The M-D sold well for a special, and a limited feature model, but the draw in this day and age is features and the M-D lacks many features that the market seems to not want to let go of. 

The M10-D at its essence is much more a standard M10-P model, with most of the M10-P feature set, lacking only the LCD and associated button controls necessary to configure all the inner workings of the M10-P. The crux of the user experience gained by a camera without LCD, buttons, and setting distractions is thus achieved, and all the settings functions of the M10 are deferred to an app that communicates with the body when reconfiguration is desired, or review of images in storage is required. But the notion isn't the minimalism posed by the ME60 or M-D262, the notion is a full featured camera that doesn't have the issues that LCD and button controls crowding the surfaces of the body pose, and the distractions thereof. 

As I've said before, I am very glad I have the M-D262. If I buy another M as companion to it, I can accept the M10-D, or M10-P, or M10 all of them from this perspective, and probably prefer the M10-D because I'll find its less cluttered body easier to hold and more familiar to me. It's closer to the M camera paradigm that I've lived with for most of my life. 

However, the "thumb rest" will still have to go. Ten minutes with a Dremel Moto Tool and it's history.  

Well said, and a helpful perspective. 

[IkarusJohn]

18 minutes ago, ramarren said:

... The M10-D at its essence is much more a standard M10-P model, with most of the M10-P feature set, lacking only the LCD and associated button controls necessary to configure all the inner workings of the M10-P. The crux of the user experience gained by a camera without LCD, buttons, and setting distractions is thus achieved, and all the settings functions of the M10 are deferred to an app that communicates with the body when reconfiguration is desired, or review of images in storage is required. But the notion isn't the minimalism posed by the ME60 or M-D262, the notion is a full featured camera that doesn't have the issues that LCD and button controls crowding the surfaces of the body pose, and the distractions thereof...

Excuse the clip.  Interesting perspective, Godfrey.

I can’t help but feel that once you’ve set whatever you need to set, if you don’t need to use the EVF, what do you have that is really different to the M60 or the M-D(262)?  I agree the lever was a surprise, and I’m not yet convinced by those who say it is a great addition.  But we’ll wait and see.

What I find interesting is that, in the hand this is an M in all its form and function.  If you’re not fiddling with your iPhone and don’t use the EVF, what are you left with?  An M10-P without an LCD - perfect.

The objections and heat strike me as conceptual, rather than real.

[pico]

7 hours ago, SMAL said:

We don´t talk about cameras from 1993 which is like stone age of technology.

Perhaps we should also put a posting limit based upon the birth date of contributors. See how silly it can become?

 

[Chris]

21 minutes ago, pico said:

Perhaps we should also put a posting limit based upon the birth date of contributors. See how silly it can become?

 

Well, in SMALs defense - the discussion about a camera from 1993 is not about a film camera but about a digital camera.
That's stone age technology indeed. Maybe that camera even still saved its pictures onto a floppy drive. 🙂

[IkarusJohn]

I seem to recall a digital camera with a CD in it.

[a.noctilux]

 

Sony Mavica 2-inch floppy disk (1981)

" coverage of the Los Angeles Olympic Games "

...

"... early adopter of revolutionary technology featuring a CCD and 2-inch floppy disk ..."

 

How it all began

Edited October 26, 2018 by a.noctilux

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Photon42]

14 hours ago, neekon said:

I agree as I mentioned, however I do notice that with the M10 method. I am changing the ISO less and treating the ISO more like film and shoot only one all day and one all night 

Oh well, I can already see Leica omitting the ISO dial altogether and storing the ISO value onto the SD (??) card 😳. Not sure though they will go the full nine yards and limited the number of  recorded DNGs to a configurable multiplier of a dozen. The version thereafter will see and ISO memo plate, as people tend to forget what ISO number the camera was set to 😎