SMAL Posted October 25, 2018 Share #381 Posted October 25, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 17 Minuten schrieb Dr No: I only shoot raw too and its not the case depends on many things. Nearly always left traces of cross curves when not applying correct white balance and when adjusting big changes in post, small changes are ok. Auto white balance rarely works consistently or and is hindered by blockings of colour in clothing, wall colour ect.. Same for lens coding correction but also inconvenience of lost metadata and important for some peoples workflow and archiving. Leica is now happy it is not backwards compatible any more? Design muddiness for sentiment is not congruent with Das Wesentliche or core design principles and objectives. It is sacrificing essentials for marketing or perhaps non successful product development. Fine for $100 Yashica Y35 not for $8000 Leica. You might be surprised that I already realise it's not the camera for me but that does not mean I can not say why I will not buy it when I wanted to. Ending discussion with it's not the camera for you could be interpreted as condescending by some... Correcting your white balance in post is 100% non destructive. There is no color shift or anything and you can easily batch adjust photos from the same scenario. It’s faster and more accurate to set it in post on a calibrated monitor, than on a tiny lcd screen, which is not accurate at all. Even when you set your white balance in camera it will barely be on point, cause white balance consists temp and tint settings and you can’t change the tint in the Leica. So 50% of your white balance are always on auto. If lens codes are really important to you, you could still get all lenses coded afterwards and would never have an issue anymore. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 Hi SMAL, Take a look here M10 M-D. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Dr No Posted October 25, 2018 Share #382 Posted October 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, SMAL said: Correcting your white balance in post is 100% non destructive. There is no color shift or anything and you can easily batch adjust photos from the same scenario. It’s faster and more accurate to set it in post on a calibrated monitor, than on a tiny lcd screen, which is not accurate at all. Even when you set your white balance in camera it will barely be on point, cause white balance consists temp and tint settings and you can’t change the tint in the Leica. So 50% of your white balance are always on auto. If lens codes are really important to you, you could still get all lenses coded afterwards and would never have an issue anymore. It is 100% non destructive because you can put it back to where it was but that does not mean it is accurate where it was and certainly not where you put it. A computer can only do so much as it was programmed/coded to do. Software can manage shifts in colour wavelength OK in small doses but one programmed algorithm and curve does not represent everything, particularly when mixed with other sources as it changes it further. I don't want to get my lenses coded. Not only for the costs of doing this but also the choice of not having to use the correct code for creative purposes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287562-m10-m-d/?do=findComment&comment=3619130'>More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 25, 2018 Share #383 Posted October 25, 2018 3 hours ago, schattenundlicht said: I am myself astonished that I feel so strongly about this. I'm not. The problem is that, whether it has any other functionality or not, the 'wind-on' lever is a FAKE. Adding something which purports to have a function that it does not have to a high end camera diminishes the cameras integrity as a tool because its pandering to style over substance. Much as I enjoy using my rangefinder Leicas, this ploy does not impress me in the slightest (I've never used a wind-on lever for anything more than film advancing though). I will not be buying one. 7 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 25, 2018 Share #384 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Rus said: The main issue with the faux rewind lever, for me, isn’t that it functions as a thumb rest, but that it could have been much more than that. Yes, I think it would have made more sense to use it as the on/off switch as well, more intuitive than having to turn the camera on with the dial on the back (and those dials have been unreliable on other Leica's). The other 'problem' with it IMHO is that there is still the thumb rest on the back of the camera. I know to have redesigned the top plate just for this model would have pushed the price up even further, but it's just a little clumsy looking. 4 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 25, 2018 Share #385 Posted October 25, 2018 Some of us have learnt by experience (R-D1) that an advance lever can be useful on digital cameras. An M-D with reversible display and advance lever a-la Epson would have interested me and i would not complain about the betrayal of whatever philosophy then. Now the current faux lever is just another evidence that Leica is more inclined to offer more or less useful gizmos than to modernize its rangefinders as long as it is not forced by the competition. Not sure that Zeiss or Pixii (?) will play the same role in 2019 as Epson in 2004 from this standpoint. 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WvE Posted October 25, 2018 Share #386 Posted October 25, 2018 The lever is indeed a bit awkward and many seem to be disappointed because it has no additional 'clever' function. On the other hand, it's a 'clever' thumb-rest even though it looks a bit pretentious. But, is there any difference between a third-party thumb-rest and this integrated one? I'm getting more concerned with Leica's product pricing. The sales figures may prove differently for now but I get the feeling that they are approaching a point where they are simply too expensive for what they offer. Unless of course it is their goal to end up in the same league like companies as Hermes c.s. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 25, 2018 Share #387 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 34 minutes ago, WvE said: [...] Unless of course it is their goal to end up in the same league like companies as Hermes c.s. They have already been there from ca. 2000-2007, when Hermès owned Leica, before the Kaufmann family took over all of the stock. This resulted in some memorable (eek!) special edition cameras. There have not been any dedicated special editions connected with the private equity investor Blackstone after they took over 45% of the stock in 2011. Well, maybe the M Monochrome „Stealth“ edition could be counted in here It is open to speculation whether the announced Zenit Leica M represents or anticipates yet another change in ownership Edited October 25, 2018 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WvE Posted October 25, 2018 Share #388 Posted October 25, 2018 "They have already been there from ca. 2000-2007, when Hermès owned Leica, before the Kaufmann family took over all of the stock. This resulted in some memorable (eek!) special edition cameras." Thanks, I did not know that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted October 25, 2018 Share #389 Posted October 25, 2018 11 hours ago, SMAL said: I only shoot raw. So white balance is a non issue and can be changed in post non destructively. not really. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgio Posted October 25, 2018 Share #390 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, lct said: Some of us have learnt by experience (R-D1) that an advance lever can be useful on digital cameras. An M-D with reversible display and advance lever a-la Epson would have interested me and i would not complain about the betrayal of whatever philosophy then. Now the current faux lever is just another evidence that Leica is more inclined to offer more or less useful gizmos than to modernize its rangefinders as long as it is not forced by the competition. Not sure that Zeiss or Pixii (?) will play the same role in 2019 as Epson in 2004 from this standpoint. Very well said, I am 100% with you. Leica could have learned from the legendary R-D1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 25, 2018 Share #391 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, jmahto said: I gave some more thought. The fake lever is not without a function. The issue (objection or ridicule) is that it doesn’t do what it looks like should be doing. But then isn’t the ISO knob in M10 similar? It also doesn’t do what a similar knob in film M will be doing. I just hope they keep the function of viewfinder same in future designs. Right, but it is legitimate to configure old controls for new functions and if you have to place an ISO control, what is the best solution? The current wheel (where the rewind knob was) is a good solution, and therefore the reconfiguration is aceptable to me. The only critique is the uncomfortable lock system of that knob. The cocking lever is a different case except if it is the best or a good-enough solution to a previous unsolved problem, like handling. But Leica already offered a good (better) solution: the thumbs rest and wheel integrated in the camera. Now you have two solutions for a single problem, making things worse as a whole. For a film-like camera the best solution is to forget the Visoflex and the thumb rest and reinstate the cocking function to the lever/thumb rest. The old classic set of solutions and a digital core. I would ask for a functional change: exposure compensation placed at the rewind knob and ISO selection at the back. Like the M240 this camera mix things and the result is not better than a pure digital camera or a pure film camera. Anyway the camera is beautiful and the functionality is pure M10, and that is very good. So all these arguments are around minor details. $8000 is not a minor detail though. Edited October 25, 2018 by rosuna Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted October 25, 2018 Share #392 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, rosuna said: ...Anyway the camera is beautiful and the functionality is pure M10, and that is very good. So all these arguments are around minor details. $8000 is not a minor detail though. The M10 is very nice. The M-D ISO control is inferior to the knob they use on the M-D for ISO: it's more ergonomic and the right location in my opinion. An EV compensation control should be a finger wheel surrounding or adjacent to the shutter release (like my Olympus E-M1 or E-PL7 has), rather than placed either on the rear panel or a horizontally acting thumbwheel. It's a more natural placement, easier to use with less movement of the hand on the camera. But all that being said, I may buy either an M10 or M10-P eventually unless they offer a version of this camera without that dumb rest that will always get in my way. The primary motivation to buying an M10 of any kind is to have a FF format camera with TTL viewing available for macro, close-up tabletop, and long lens use. I don't do those things so much of the time, and the CL body is proving very good at that kind of work already, so the thought is a "maybe" at this point if it turns out that the larger format would also be useful for my work in this domain. I'm very well equipped with my current lens collection of Leica M and R lenses and accessories, so I have no inclination to buy into another system for this work and I can accept some irrelevancies and fripperies that I dislike intensely as long as they don't get in the way of my primary need/desire. The M-D is not going to go anywhere. Edited October 25, 2018 by ramarren 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotium Posted October 25, 2018 Share #393 Posted October 25, 2018 4 hours ago, pgk said: I'm not. The problem is that, whether it has any other functionality or not, the 'wind-on' lever is a FAKE. Adding something which purports to have a function that it does not have to a high end camera diminishes the cameras integrity as a tool because its pandering to style over substance. Much as I enjoy using my rangefinder Leicas, this ploy does not impress me in the slightest (I've never used a wind-on lever for anything more than film advancing though). I will not be buying one. As is the bottom plate, and indeed the very form of the camera being like a bar of soap, which is even more difficult to hold than the film version it mimicks because the film advance lever is missing, unless replaced artificially by a thumb rest that digs into your back when carrying on a strap. What they’ve done here is take a collection of all of what you would refer to as fake old parts and throw them together in a sticky $8000 nostalgia freak mess. Fake gaudy engraving siding an egonomically impossible iso dial that is there only to mimick a film rewind crank, and an additional and entirely unnecessary dial on the back for exposure comp, which could be controlled by the thumb wheel anyway, and, yes, a rewind crank that could probably have been addressed with something less fake, such as a change in the shape of the body. I thought they got it right with the M-D and I really hoped to see that iso dial return in place of the fiddly disaster on the m10. My pockets aren’t deep enough for this nostalgia binge anyway, so I should just stop paying attention. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey You Posted October 25, 2018 Share #394 Posted October 25, 2018 What troubles me is that the camera seems to have multiple design flaws. It is not just the faux wind lever which is redundant. The camera retains the Live View button on the front of the camera, the scroll wheel on the rear, and adds a new button on the top, beside the shutter release. These controls should all be redundant in a minimalist camera whose menu settings can all be controlled by the iPhone Fotos App. This camera looks like it was designed by a committee whose priority was to use leftover parts from previous camera models. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkcampbell2 Posted October 25, 2018 Share #395 Posted October 25, 2018 3 hours ago, schattenundlicht said: They have already been there from ca. 2000-2007, when Hermès owned Leica, before the Kaufmann family took over all of the stock. This resulted in some memorable (eek!) special edition cameras. There have not been any dedicated special editions connected with the private equity investor Blackstone after they took over 45% of the stock in 2011. Well, maybe the M Monochrome „Stealth“ edition could be counted in here It is open to speculation whether the announced Zenit Leica M represents or anticipates yet another change in ownership Leica M-P “Correspondent” by Lenny Kravitz Leica M Monochrom “Stealth Edition” LEICA M10 EDITION ZAGATO Leica M (Typ 262) Red Anodized Version Leica M-P „grip“ by Rolf Sachs Leica M-P (Typ 240) Titan Set M-P Edition Safari M Edition 60 Cheers, jc 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted October 25, 2018 Share #396 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) The instruction manual for the M10-D has now been posted at the leica-camera.com website: http://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10-D/Downloads I found an answer to a question that I didn't think to ask during the beta test -- what happens if you install a non-coded M mount lens or an R lens in an R to M adapter. The answer is that a standard profile is used, and no lens information is written into the EXIF. The QuickStart Guide will answer most questions, but I haven't found that yet. Edited October 25, 2018 by scott kirkpatrick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 25, 2018 Share #397 Posted October 25, 2018 44 minutes ago, jkcampbell2 said: Leica M-P “Correspondent” by Lenny Kravitz Leica M Monochrom “Stealth Edition” LEICA M10 EDITION ZAGATO Leica M (Typ 262) Red Anodized Version Leica M-P „grip“ by Rolf Sachs Leica M-P (Typ 240) Titan Set M-P Edition Safari M Edition 60 Cheers, jc My subconscious successfully removed all memories of these abominations. By far the worst was the embarassing Kravitz. Thanks for refreshing my recall 2 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAL Posted October 25, 2018 Share #398 Posted October 25, 2018 vor 4 Stunden schrieb frame-it: not really. 100%. Go out and test it. Shoot awb and kelvin side by side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaidshirts Posted October 25, 2018 Share #399 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, schattenundlicht said: My subconscious successfully removed all memories of these abominations. By far the worst was the embarassing Kravitz. Thanks for refreshing my recall LOL, I didn't know most of those existed. Aimed at rich hipsters obviously. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr No Posted October 25, 2018 Share #400 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, SMAL said: 100%. Go out and test it. Shoot awb and kelvin side by side. No, you are wrong. Edited October 25, 2018 by Dr No 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.