Chaemono Posted November 15, 2017 Share #521 Posted November 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) No prototype. The ugly thing you see in the pictures is the actual camera. The EVF you see is the SL EVF. And, yes, it is the TL2 sensor. This may spoil some people’s wetdreams here but others are really excited about this camera. And my guess is it will do really well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 15, 2017 Posted November 15, 2017 Hi Chaemono, Take a look here Code Name "Clooney". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Louis Posted November 15, 2017 Share #522 Posted November 15, 2017 (edited) Somehow, I like to believe the camera would look much nicer than what you see in the picture. Actually I hear it is very pretty. Also, it seems that Leica made a very big effort to have a camera of this size as “perfect” as it could be. So, I believe, instead of so many speculations and different guesses from people who have no clear idea about “Clooney”, it would be wiser to be more patient and wait a few more days before any judgement. As for myself, I will order one as soon as it is possible to order. Edited November 15, 2017 by Louis 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted November 15, 2017 Share #523 Posted November 15, 2017 (edited) Louis, I talked to someone yesterday who’s seen and used it. The ugly lump is there. No other way to incorporate the SL EVF. That’s what I was told, and that the AF is lightening fast with the 18mm pancake. Edited November 15, 2017 by Chaemono 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 15, 2017 Share #524 Posted November 15, 2017 No prototype. The ugly thing you see in the pictures is the actual camera. The EVF you see is the SL EVF. And, yes, it is the TL2 sensor. This may spoil some people’s wetdreams here but others are really excited about this camera. And my guess is it will do really well. Wet dreams? Please, show some respect to other users who might not share your view. Somehow, I like to believe the camera would look much nicer than what you see in the picture. Actually I hear it is very pretty. Also, it seems that Leica made a very big effort to have a camera of this size as “perfect” as it could be. So, I believe, instead of so many speculations and different guesses from people who have no clear idea about “Clooney”, it would be wiser to be more patient and wait a few more days before any judgement. As for myself, I will order one as soon as it is possible to order. I certainly hope you're right, Louis, and I agree that we really only know what they're releasing when they remove the covers. What I find odd is that there has been clear and consistent demand, pretty much since the M9 broke cover, for an EVF based M camera, to sit alongside the optical rangefinder based M10 cameras. It can have an L mount (I would prefer an M mount, but that's because I don't want AF in this camera), but what people want is something smaller than the SL, but with full frame, and the elegance of the M based camera. Everything Leica releases is inevitably compared to this rather mythical camera that many people want ... many more that those who want this X bodied, APS-C, L mount camera. If it really does have the SL EVF, it will be interesting but it will still be APS-C. Will shoehorning that EVF into this camera be enough? I'm not so sure, when there is no similar EVF available for the M cameras or the TL2 ... Hopefully next week will be more interesting than what we've seen so far. new M10 based cameras? Monochrom? M-D ... Cheers John 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted November 15, 2017 Share #525 Posted November 15, 2017 Denial is not just a river in Egypt. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted November 15, 2017 Share #526 Posted November 15, 2017 Wet dreams? Please, show some respect to other users who might not share your view. I certainly hope you're right, Louis, and I agree that we really only know what they're releasing when they remove the covers. What I find odd is that there has been clear and consistent demand, pretty much since the M9 broke cover, for an EVF based M camera, to sit alongside the optical rangefinder based M10 cameras. It can have an L mount (I would prefer an M mount, but that's because I don't want AF in this camera), but what people want is something smaller than the SL, but with full frame, and the elegance of the M based camera. Everything Leica releases is inevitably compared to this rather mythical camera that many people want ... many more that those who want this X bodied, APS-C, L mount camera. If it really does have the SL EVF, it will be interesting but it will still be APS-C. Will shoehorning that EVF into this camera be enough? I'm not so sure, when there is no similar EVF available for the M cameras or the TL2 ... Hopefully next week will be more interesting than what we've seen so far. new M10 based cameras? Monochrom? M-D ... Cheers John An EVF based M camera would likely still need a dirty great BUMP on the top to accommodate a half-decent built-in finder … in lieu of a rangefinder. And such a camera would only accommodate M lenses - which are not necessarily the best optics for such a camera. Leica are hardly likely to design a whole new set of 'small' FF SL mount lenses just for such a camera - especially when they have been unable (so far) to release the promised SL lenses for the Leica SL. A compact EVF based M camera is unlikely to happen. dunk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted November 15, 2017 Share #527 Posted November 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I, for one, prefer shooting with the eye to the viewfinder , and having a body with a few knobs that can be set without removing the eye from the finder. This is only possible with the EVF attached to the TL2, but it should work perfectly well with the CL. I may belong to a minority based on many of the above comments, but I am quite intrigued by the CL. I foresee that I would (1) use the SL as a pocket camera with native TL lenses and lots of smaller Leica and other glasses, old or new, optically perfect or with character, and (2) as an extender to the SL 90-280mm and long(er) lenses. I find the TL2 sensor very fine, so I am fully satisfied with a similar sensor in the CL. No problem at all. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 15, 2017 Share #528 Posted November 15, 2017 Hi Dunk, I'm not sure why you refer to new lenses. An EVF based M camera would just use M lenses, and there are a lot of them - what is wrong with their optics? They work very nicely with the M10 - the sensor and pretty much everything would be just the same. This is not a new system, just a further M variant. The optical view finder takes up a lot of space in the M body - I'm not sure you're right that an EVF wouldn't fit. However, reality steps in, and of course such a camera would be L mount, rather than M mount and that changes everything. Rather than an M variant, we get to a mini SL ... not sure I see the point in that, but it may come one day. As for the SL lenses, I don't think Leica has been "unable" to release the new lenses - they're just not ready yet. Leica's lowest priorities seem to be meeting customer demand. When it's ready, it's ready, and not before. They don't want a re-run of the APO Summicron 50 recall, I'm sure. Cheers John 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted November 15, 2017 Share #529 Posted November 15, 2017 (edited) Hi Dunk, I'm not sure why you refer to new lenses. An EVF based M camera would just use M lenses, and there are a lot of them - what is wrong with their optics? They work very nicely with the M10 - the sensor and pretty much everything would be just the same … Cheers John Yes they work but the wider they are, the more 'in camera' correction is required due to telecentric issues. At the end of the day there is a limit as how many different types of FF cameras Leica Camera AG can justify manufacturing. They could probably produce a rangefinder M with a built in EVF but it would be very expensive and likely upset the rangefinder traditionalists … who would be even more upset if they saw a pure EVF M camera. EVFs likely have a finite production life which is less than any intended M body designed to receive it. 'In-house' manufactured optical rangefinders are a very different ball game and have far greater longevity. Leica manufactures and assembles cameras but they do not manufacture the electronic viewfinders. Trying to please everyone with a good range of cameras and lenses for two formats whilst at the same time endeavouring to make a profit must be extremely difficult. Best wishes dunk Edited November 15, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphlex Posted November 15, 2017 Share #530 Posted November 15, 2017 Yes they work but the wider they are, the more 'in camera' correction is required due to telecentric issues. At the end of the day there is a limit as how many different types of FF cameras Leica Camera AG can justify manufacturing. They could probably produce a rangefinder M with a built in EVF but it would be very expensive and likely upset the rangefinder traditionalists … who would be even more upset if they saw a pure EVF M camera. EVFs likely have a finite production life which is less than any intended M body designed to receive it. 'In-house' manufactured optical rangefinders are a very different ball game and have far greater longevity. Leica manufactures and assembles cameras but they do not manufacture the electronic viewfinders. Trying to please everyone with a good range of cameras and lenses for two formats whilst at the same time endeavouring to make a profit must be extremely difficult. Best wishes dunk That raises an intriguing question: with its Maestro 2 processor, could the TL2 run a better EVF than the current 020 model? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 15, 2017 Share #531 Posted November 15, 2017 Louis, I talked to someone yesterday who’s seen and used it. The ugly lump is there. No other way to incorporate the SL EVF. That’s what I was told, and that the AF is lightening fast with the 18mm pancake. Lightning fast AF with an 18mm lens is hardly a big challenge. I hope it will be lightning fast with the longer zooms, the 35mm and the 60mm. And I hope that can be implemented in the TL2 by firmware. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 15, 2017 Share #532 Posted November 15, 2017 Yes they work but the wider they are, the more 'in camera' correction is required due to telecentric issues. At the end of the day there is a limit as how many different types of FF cameras Leica Camera AG can justify manufacturing. They could probably produce a rangefinder M with a built in EVF but it would be very expensive and likely upset the rangefinder traditionalists … who would be even more upset if they saw a pure EVF M camera. EVFs likely have a finite production life which is less than any intended M body designed to receive it. 'In-house' manufactured optical rangefinders are a very different ball game and have far greater longevity. Leica manufactures and assembles cameras but they do not manufacture the electronic viewfinders. Trying to please everyone with a good range of cameras and lenses for two formats whilst at the same time endeavouring to make a profit must be extremely difficult. Best wishes dunk I'm not sure where you're going with this. The suggestion is not a new camera, just a different version of the M - there's no reason why the wides should be any different from any other M camera. You are right, though about expense and the market perception. The issue is less the M camera, that seems destined to remain something for the "traditionalists" as you call them. What Leica seems to be saying is that if you want full frame, best EVF available, then the SL is your choice. If you want to use M lenses, then you have the choice of the M cameras or the SL. What I struggle with a little is that the M comes in a number of varieties - M10, M240, M246, M262 & M-D - but none of them EVF, save with the Visoflex-020. It seems Leica isn't keen to fill that hole, yet it seems happy to provide an EVF based APS-C camera ... As PeterH feared when the SL was announced, perhaps the M is destined to be a quaint dead-end ... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted November 15, 2017 Share #533 Posted November 15, 2017 Two years have passed with Leica producing 24 MPx High ISO CMOS sensors at full frame and now at APS-C. I would expect at the top of the line it's time for more pixels and 24 MPx APS-C products can become the standard for the mid-range. Thanks to the T, TL and TL2 there are lots of lenses available to Leica that cover APS-C with AF. Fuji is also offering some excellent products in APS-C at just this level of technology -- the XT2 for the conventional expectations and the XPro2 for the eye-level street shooter. Because they are autofocus throughout, and don't have any manual lenses that need a rangefinder, they can keep both cameras quite compact and easy to use. Leica wants to keep the M series special and different, I suspect, so this new CL fits best as an APS-C offering. No compromise in image quality, autofocus lenses of excellent quality (I just did some tests on mine), and a clean user interface. Not quite an X-Pro2 killer because an EVF can never be as fast as an OVF. But I suspect the lenses will prove to be better than Fuji's f/2 series that are the best fit with the X-Pro2. The lens that appeals to me is the 23/2.0, since I have too many 50's already. It's small, should focus fast, and is already a favorite among the T crowd, Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted November 15, 2017 Share #534 Posted November 15, 2017 .... At the end of the day there is a limit as how many different types of FF cameras Leica Camera AG can justify manufacturing. They could probably produce a rangefinder M with a built in EVF but it would be very expensive and likely upset the rangefinder traditionalists … Leica (Stefan Daniel?) has already weighed in on this -- there just isn't space in the top portion of an M camera for a high quality EVF as well as the mechanical rangefinder mechanism. So until they are ready to throw all that out and replace it with lasers, the platform for all the legacy M lenses will probably remain pure optical. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 15, 2017 Share #535 Posted November 15, 2017 Louis, I talked to someone yesterday who’s seen and used it. The ugly lump is there. No other way to incorporate the SL EVF. That’s what I was told, and that the AF is lightening fast with the 18mm pancake. Yes, you are right; the lump is going to be there. But from I am hearing, even with that lump the camera is not as ugly as it is in the pictures; and also, I am also being told that it performs beautifully! It is going to be a very interesting “little” camera for sure. So many people asked for a small SL and I believe this is the closer you can get. With this size, I am not sure a FF would be possible. Therefore, I am waiting to see and test it myself and see what Jono is commenting about. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 15, 2017 Share #536 Posted November 15, 2017 Leica (Stefan Daniel?) has already weighed in on this -- there just isn't space in the top portion of an M camera for a high quality EVF as well as the mechanical rangefinder mechanism. So until they are ready to throw all that out and replace it with lasers, the platform for all the legacy M lenses will probably remain pure optical. Yes, I remember that too. But the proposal is not to have BOTH the optical mechanical rangefinder and the EVF. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 15, 2017 Share #537 Posted November 15, 2017 Yes, you are right; the lump is going to be there. Why is the lump going to be there? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/275404-code-name-clooney/?do=findComment&comment=3396503'>More sharing options...
mmanda Posted November 16, 2017 Share #538 Posted November 16, 2017 Louis, I talked to someone yesterday who’s seen and used it. The ugly lump is there. No other way to incorporate the SL EVF. That’s what I was told, and that the AF is lightening fast with the 18mm pancake. That 'ugly' bump is nowhere as unsightly as this bump! I'd much rather not have to have a separate accessory and have a nicer EVF and bump than this big one. Leica T w a Voigt 40 1.4 Nokton by mmanda withers, on Flickr 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bencychin Posted November 16, 2017 Share #539 Posted November 16, 2017 That 'ugly' bump is nowhere as unsightly as this bump! I'd much rather not have to have a separate accessory and have a nicer EVF and bump than this big one. Leica T w a Voigt 40 1.4 Nokton by mmanda withers, on Flickr It is really ugly I must agree. However, my personal preference is for the detachable EVF Visoflex 020 now that Leica Rumors said the resolution of CL build-in EVF = Visoflex 020. I too hoped for SL grade of EVF (4.4 MP) but it is not there. Still it is a decent 3.7MP = spec of Q EVF. At least I get tilt function plus GPS AND it can be shared between TL/TL2 and M10 bodies. CL looks more palatable in reducing the BIG BLOB ugly profile if you don't mind paying for it just for CL body with non tilting functionality. I know it is just my own taste of things. Cheers. Benedict Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 16, 2017 Share #540 Posted November 16, 2017 Why is the lump going to be there? f9ad474d6541d21465f884a2c9bd2f8a.jpg My point was that I do not think the final product is going to be any different from the picture! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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