Hey You Posted May 30, 2017 Share #21 Posted May 30, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Bill W wrote, "My other thought is that they do not wish to have issues discussed on forums and start rumors about systemic problems." I agree. Locking of ISO settings suggests a defect in current M10 firmware. Expect a firmware update.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 30, 2017 Posted May 30, 2017 Hi Hey You, Take a look here M10 Stuck On ISO 400. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hteasley Posted May 30, 2017 Share #22 Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) My guess would be what was surmised, that the ISO button had physically decoupled, so the external dial was no longer turning the internal mechanism. The symptoms seem to suggest that: camera works, menus work, ISO behaves as if the dial is set to 400. The simplest notion is that the dial actually is set to 400, on the inside. Anyone who has ever done anything like repair a sink faucet or stove burner dial has seen this sort of thing, where the outer handle breaks in some way where it ceases to turn the inner shaft. Rather than be wary of using the menus, I'd be wary of using the dial too much, or doing anything to stress it physically. Edited May 30, 2017 by hteasley Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #23 Posted May 30, 2017 Bill W wrote, "My other thought is that they do not wish to have issues discussed on forums and start rumors about systemic problems." I agree. Locking of ISO settings suggests a defect in current M10 firmware. Expect a firmware update.. If it were a firmware fault all cameras would exhibit the problem. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2017 Share #24 Posted May 30, 2017 A bit of a useless ornament in that case. I think i will set the iso dial to M And change it a more traditional way through its menu Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Then really, why have the top ISO dial on the M10? I've personally never seen the point of it myself. Changing ISO on a M9, MM, or the 240 series has never been a problem, it's very easy and quick to accomplish so why did they add the top dial to the M10 mix? I'd rather that Leica kept the top of the M10 clean and had the ISO adjustment as it's always been in prior digital M's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ricoh Posted May 30, 2017 Share #25 Posted May 30, 2017 Then really, why have the top ISO dial on the M10? I've personally never seen the point of it myself. Changing ISO on a M9, MM, or the 240 series has never been a problem, it's very easy and quick to accomplish so why did they add the top dial to the M10 mix? I'd rather that Leica kept the top of the M10 clean and had the ISO adjustment as it's always been in prior digital M's. The M240 design is more than adequate, quick and easy when it comes to changing ISO. Electronics tend to be reliable once burnt-in (by the manufacturer, sifting infant mortality), however once electronics are interfaced to mechanical parts, that's when reliability suffers, especially with rotary mechanical interfaces - better of course if optically connected. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #26 Posted May 30, 2017 I think it is a design matter. Leica wanted to have the M10 look as much as a film M as possible to emphasize the main selling point, i.e. the smaller size. All film Ms have rewind crank/knob in that location. As the digital Ms have no film , using it for ISO appears to be the most sensible function for the thing. Theoretically there is no case to be made for ISO being a mechanical setting on a fully manual camera, although I'm sure that quite a few owners find it useful. Getting an exposure depends on the amount of light hitting the sensor/film. The only wesentliche parameters are shutter speed and aperture, thus those are the essential controls. Film/sensor sensitivity/amplification is basically something else, i.e. the way the light is processed by the medium. Having said that, that ISO dial looks nice and retro Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted May 30, 2017 Share #27 Posted May 30, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) My user point of view: that ISO dial is one of great user-minded device from Leica. Just one glance to see all 3 parameters is new in digital M. As side note: my wife who use my EX-M9 now ask "how I can see battery/card indicator ?" with her years of M8 user, as pushing "info" button on M9 is not "natural" for her Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ricoh Posted May 30, 2017 Share #28 Posted May 30, 2017 I think it is a design matter. Leica wanted to have the M10 look as much as a film M as possible to emphasize the main selling point, i.e. the smaller size. All film Ms have rewind crank/knob in that location. As the digital Ms have no film , using it for ISO appears to be the most sensible function for the thing. Theoretically there is no case to be made for ISO being a mechanical setting on a fully manual camera, although I'm sure that quite a few owners find it useful. Getting an exposure depends on the amount of light hitting the sensor/film. The only wesentliche parameters are shutter speed and aperture, thus those are the essential controls. Film/sensor sensitivity/amplification is basically something else, i.e. the way the light is processed by the medium. Having said that, that ISO dial looks nice and retro Aperture is more a DoF control for many of us, once set to f8 it's set and thus exposure is controlled by SS and ISO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #29 Posted May 30, 2017 The ISO setting does not control exposure, it controls the how amount of light that the sensor has been exposed to is handled by the camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted May 30, 2017 Share #30 Posted May 30, 2017 The ISO setting does not control exposure, it controls the how amount of light that the sensor has been exposed to is handled by the camera. That's not true, it's tells the firmware how much amplification to be given to the image. The sensor only has one ISO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted May 30, 2017 Share #31 Posted May 30, 2017 Suggestion for M13 ... Not for esthetic looking but functional. Leica have done that long time ago. The clean looking of M top plate is nice, but sometime I would like to see this as R6 top plate with plus minus correction in one sight, ISO. And why not frame-count/battery (as M8) and meter type (spot or average) and film/sensor plane ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #32 Posted May 30, 2017 That's not true, it's tells the firmware how much amplification to be given to the image. The sensor only has one ISO. In what way is this different from my post? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted May 30, 2017 Share #33 Posted May 30, 2017 In what way is this different from my post? "Has been exposed" implies a single amount. Where ISO is a choice. Unless your ISO knob is broken. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ricoh Posted May 30, 2017 Share #34 Posted May 30, 2017 The ISO setting does not control exposure, it controls the how amount of light that the sensor has been exposed to is handled by the camera. In the sense that ISO and SS affect the output, important to have two controls if aperture is 'welded' to f8 (or 11, or possibly 16 on a really sunny day). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ricard Posted May 30, 2017 Share #35 Posted May 30, 2017 The ISO setting does not control exposure, it controls the how amount of light that the sensor has been exposed to is handled by the camera. In a practical sense it absolutely does. If you turn the shutter speed dial one direction, your image will get lighter. If you turn it the other direction, your image will get darker. The same goes for the ISO dial. Within a certain range say, 100-1600 there is not much difference in the quality of the image -particularly in images posted on social media which is wear a lot of Leica images end up. There aren't that many pros out there using Leica M bodies for editorial or advertising work. So in a practical sense, if you're shooting for your Flickr page, there is a decent range of settings where turning either the shutter speed dial or ISO dial will both result in an image that looks the same. So you can play word games and define exactly what happens when you turn the ISO dial, but on a bright day, in real world Leica usage, if your image is too bright and you want to make it darker, it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you adjust the ISO or the shutter speed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #36 Posted May 30, 2017 Exposure is the amount of ligt hitting the sensor, nothing more, nothing less. The sensor has a fixed sensitivity - base ISO. The sensor output will always be the same with the amount of light hitting the sensor. You can adjust the gain in the camera's processing, the camera will call it ISO. Basically you can do exactly the same thing in the computer (with some marginal differences like noise reduction etc.) On some cameras you will get better results that way. The only difference you will notice is that the camera's LCD will get progressively darker if you go the computer route. So Aperture and Shutterspeed are the exposure parameters, ISO adjustment is a processing setting. No word game, basic (digital) photographic theory. And it makes a darn lot of difference whether you adjust shutter speed or ISO. The latter will affect both noise behaviour and dynamic range. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #37 Posted May 30, 2017 "Has been exposed" implies a single amount. Where ISO is a choice. Unless your ISO knob is broken. The sensor only has one ISO. What choice? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ricard Posted May 30, 2017 Share #38 Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) And if I'm teaching photography to someone and they ask what to do if the photo is too bright, I will tell them to either increase the shutter speed or reduce the ISO. I don't think they will care what is happening on the sensor itself. Nor should they. Similarly, when they ask why the heads of their portrait subjects are distorted, I will tell them to use an 85mm lens for portraits and not a wide angle lens. I'm sure you'd explain that the wide angle lens doesn't actually cause the distortion and they could in fact use any lens for portraits provided they were willing to crop to the proper composition.... Again, it's the difference between explaining something in a simple manner that is clear and easy to understand and works in the real world vs providing a technical explanation that really doesn't matter when you're looking at an actual photograph or trying to take one. Edited May 30, 2017 by John Ricard 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2017 Share #39 Posted May 30, 2017 Simplification is fine, especially if it helps teaching. But it should not come at the price of incorrect basics. Your cropping example is a good one. It is the cause of the confusion between perspective by subject distance and focal length we see about every two months on the forum. Edit : BTW, this discussion could never have happened in the film days. One had to choose the ISO before even starting to use a camera. And still beginners managed to get properly exposed shots with some tuition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted May 30, 2017 Share #40 Posted May 30, 2017 What choice? To increase the amplification of the sensors base ISO. The use of ISO is more common usage rather than truly technological. Really the base sensitivity is all we really have. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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