mweiner

Today I received an email from Phase One announcing a update (C1 v11.1,0) and downloaded it. The release notes show new support for quite a few Leica Cameras and new support for the lenses, 90M Summicron and 90M Elmarit. It therefore seems they are paying some attention to Leica profiles and one would hope they reviewed the M10 Generic Profile. I do not have a copy of c1 v9, and I do not discriminate subtle differences in color well, but to me the Generic DNG and M10 Generic from the new 11.1.0 look pretty much the same as those from 10.1 and 11.0. I'll be interested to hear the opinions of others with better skills.

The implications are worrisome: Not only are recent copies affect so that now, not only many more owners might worry, but future owners may be reluctant to use the wheel. Even more important, since Leica must have known several months ago of the problem, it seems possible they have been unable to fix the manufacturing problem. That means that repaired cameras might be as likely to experience the problem as previous manufactured ones! All this makes even more necessary a firmware option force menu control of of the ISO setting, overriding the dial.

This post contains some points I made earlier in this thread which I think is forgivable given that the issue of the stuck ISO wheel now seems less dismissible than previously. (Thank you Uwiler.) The two recent posts by rqliang and happymac highlight the issues that concerned us. — I’ll put the bottom line here so you can avoid reading the repeated arguments below: Please add to the firmware request thread(s) your desire for an _option_ to make menu ISO override the dial 0.) While I would prefer to use the dial (if there were less risk of sudden non-usability), the alternative of setting the dial to M and using the menus is acceptable to me. When the M10 was first released, there were several who opined that the ergonomics of the M240 button/menu were superior to the dial. I don’t want to restart that debate, but the M10 can be set to duplicate those M240 ergonomics: If you make the iso menu item a favorite and can accept not setting as favorites any items that appear on the main menu before it, then you have almost exactly the same ease of checking/changing ISO as on the M240 — which arguably about as easy as the dial: Click menu>see the current iso at the top of the favorites — an easy check. If you want to change, click the same button again and scroll to select. 1.) Given 0 above, there may be many in addition to rqliang and me who cautiously choose not to use the dial. It may only take two weeks for repair at leica, but as Uliwer pointed out, shipping can add a lot more — and for those of us in the US, Asia or Australia, that can be a couple of eternities. Some may just choose to avoid the wheel during critical shoots. But if you are going to use the menu alternative during critical times, you would surely want to be practicing that during non-critical times — and so would not be using the dial at all. 2.) happymac’s point is important. Not using the dial fails to uncover the problem. This is relevant not only regarding warranty issues, but if there is a significant number of folks like rqliang and me who are not using their dials, failing to uncover defective ones, then the potential failures will remain occult and unreported. Thus a false sense of security. 3.) Of course, the definitive solution is to manufacture the M10 without the problem — which Leica may or may not have been able to do. However, for those of us with cameras made at least until June, there is a very desirable “solution” (really a kludge): A firmware update _option_ to have the menu ISO settings override the dial. That will enable us to use the dials with the advantages happymac recommends. I encourage any who agree with this to lean on their spears and add their wish for this in the firmware request thread(s).

Given the occurrences of ISO dial failure suddenly making the camera essentially unusable and given the relative workability of using the menu to set ISO (if the dial is left on 'M'), many M10 users are not using the dial. If there were an _option_ in the menus to have the menu setting override the dial, folks could use the dial with more confidence.

Given the occurrences of ISO dial failure suddenly making the camera essentially unusable and given the relative workability of using the menu to set ISO (if the dial is left on 'M'), many M10 users are not using the dial. If there were an _option_ in the menus to have the menu setting override the dial, folks could use the dial with more confidence.

I would assume that there is a non-negligible number of people not using their ISO dials who would use them with more confidence if there were a menu _option_ to make the menu ISO setting override the dial. I will submit a request for that to the firmware request thread(s). Others who agree might want to second it.

Well, I stand corrected. I was under the false impression that Leica had released an updated version of the 75 summilux which people were commoting about. Apparently not; and the images here are from the old version which Leica no longer makes and about which people should commot. Those of us who have one are lucky.

These are great images. Am I right to assume they are taken with a "75 lux" that is a newer version than the old Canadian/Mandler "Monster". I'm sure the newer version is more perfect. Does my old version have any redeeming features? (I have the 75 Summicron APO for when I need something lighter with more contrast -- if that helps.)

Ok, from the posts here, it sounds like most experienced M users think the risk of ‘iso stuck’ is low enough and the better ergonomics of the wheel vs menu are significant enough for them to recommend that we use the wheel and expect the best. Apparently, there aren’t that many folks like me who over-cautiously fear a sudden lock-up and find the ergonomics of the menu an acceptable trade-off. If there were a lot more folks like me among those who purchased cameras from Jan to (at least) May who are fearful of using their wheels, then it would be nice for Leica to write into the firmware an _option_ to force the menu iso settings to over-ride those from the (stuck) wheel. Then we could more confidently use our wheels knowing that if the ISO wheel stuck the camera would still be usable. Of course if there were a great many cautious folks like me not using their wheels, such an option might be a disadvantage to Leica as many would start using their wheels and uncover more M10’s needing warranty repair. However, from the recent posts here, that does not appear to be an issue.

Thank you for your efforts to pin down the ISO wheel failures in relation to serial # and manufacture date. My camera SN 5152* came in a box with a date of 3/21/2017 in the bar-code label so it was likely manufactured during the 1st 3 months after the Jan 19 announcement. The camera has not suffered from the ISO wheel problem; but that isn't really useful information. I did use the wheel moderately during the first month I had it in May. However, since then I set the wheel to M and have not been using it so we don't know if it is about to have the problem or not. Different folks have different approaches to risk and/or the value of the external ISO dial. There is one important factor the needs to be weighed against the risk factor we are struggling with here. I love the _idea_ of the external dial and in general I much prefer that to struggling with menus. However, I find (as several other's argued when the M10 was first released), that with the M10 using the menus is possibly actually easier than the dial: - On the one hand the dial needs two hands and a re-positioning of the camera in one's hands to lift it up. (And, as discussed in another thread, I can't manage to keep it up for easy changing but keep pushing it down, so for me I would always have to struggle thru lifting up in order to change the ISO setting.) - On the other hand, the ISO setting is can be immediately viewed in the favorites after one push of the menu button, and it's easy to scroll down to change it. - Furthermore, the order of what appears in the favorites menu is determined by the order of items in the main menu. I find I don't need any items of the main menu that would come before the ISO settings to be favorites. Thus, the ISO setting is at the top of my favorites (eliminating any need to scroll down to change it. Thus checking the current ISO setting is easier than most "chimps" to check a shot and changing it is arguably easier than using the dial. I don't want to reopen here the arguments about which is more egonomic, the external wheel or the iso on the favorites menu, but when you consider the risk of a locked-up iso setting, it is no wonder that so many have chosen to leave their wheels on 'M', and that we may never know the percentage (and dates of manufacture) of the problem cameras. I am sure that Leica has fixed the manufacturing process to avoid the problem, and it seems they have been good about promptly repairing defective ISO dials. After that, the most useful thing they could do for most of us with pre SN 5159* cameras, would be to issue a firmware update making it possible (as a special, deeply buried menu option) to override a locked-up dial, effectively making it 'M'.

UliWer, I like your appoach, but what if some of the people you are advising to continue not using their ISO wheels for “some more weeks” have faulty-wheeled cameras which have not yet been identified because the wheels are not being used/tested. In that case, we would see a rash of failures as people put their wheels to use after “some weeks.” To be cautious, should I wait for some more weeks after the some weeks? However, that won’t help if the others following your advice are similarly cautions. The best thing (for me) would be for everyone (but me) to follow Steve Ash’s approach (post 198 above) of heavily using their wheels to see if they can provoke them to fail. Then in a few weeks I would have a much better idea of whether Jaap is correct that only a small number of cameras were affected. I am sure he is right that Leica has the problem under control. But without better information than we have here about the manufacture dates, I don’t know if Leica got control of the problem before my M10 (SN 5152*) was made in (I’m guessing) March or April.

Well, I wasn't thinking so much in terms of use/stress that would cause the problem as just any use that would reveal it. Once someone decides to commit to only using manual, he will not use the wheel at all and won't know if the wheel is defective (or prone to the problem) even if it is.

Strangely, there hasn't be any report in this thread of a stuck ISO wheel since Jul 13 -- almost a month ago. Afraid of the problem, I have keep my wheel on 'M' and have instead used the menu, meanwhile monitoring this thread to see the evolution of the issue. At first thought, the lack of recent reports suggests it would be safe to go back to using the wheel. However, I am now wondering if the reason there have not been reports in the last month is that, other than the few who have reported using their wheels heavily without problem, many forum members mostly likely to report the problem here are also keeping their wheels on M. If so, it may not be so safe for me to back to using it. Thoughts?

Jaap, thanks for the clarification and pointers on pros and cons. I prefer the harder way (in almost every application).

I am posting 3 examples of how I hold my M10 for shooting portrait orientation. As you’d expect of someone who can’t keep from pushing down the ISO dial, I just can’t keep my fingers away from the focusing patch window when going under-handed, so I go ‘over-hand’. The first example is my preference for lenses with short throw and a tab. The second example is my preference for longer throw lenses without a tab. The third example is what I do for maximum stability when this is more critical that being able to quickly re-adjust the focus. In defense of my taking my fingers away from the focusing ring, I’ll cite practice of experienced street shooters who set a 35mm lens at f8 focused at about 12 feet, giving them an (ideal) DOF from 8 feet to infinity; then they shoot, not only with fingers away from the focusing ring, but often their eye away from the viewfinder. These examples also illustrate a tip from “The Old Man” Lars B. of the early M8 forum. He recommended the strap be adjusted pretty short and placing the right hand under/inside it when lifting the camera so it wraps around one’s hand. With just right adjustment of the strap, this works in both the landscape and portrait positions, Also, one can easily alternate between carrying the camera either hanging off the left shoulder and/or the bandolier style, and it can still work in both camera orientations. The old classic Leica strap works fine, though I use the ‘medium’ width Upstrap. The new strap Leica includes with the M10 probably won’t work. The point is that as one tensions the strap with one’s hand and slouches the shoulders the straps compress the hands around the camera using one’s back/shoulder as the stabilizing anchor. You can see in the third example, where I want maximum stability, I place also my left hand under the strap. As some will remember, Lars was one of the more respected contributors to the M8 forum, and I have found his recommendation my go to method for holding an M. There is something else to note in the examples is definitely idiosyncratic and controversial. You will note how my right index finger extends along the right side of the camera. Using the thumb is ok, but then one can’t lock the camera between the two hands; using the index finger the flat way one should for horizontal shooting is very awkward; bending the finger and using the tip leads to jabbing the release. Of course you wonder how I can release the shutter. I have a micro-soft release on the release button which adds (only) 2mm height. I fashion these from little pieces of self-adhesive felt drawer or furniture pads, but I have also used some bumpers from Amazon which come in clear and black. It may be necessary to trim a little so the adhesive doesn’t attach to the ring around the button. I rarely use a cable release and when I do, the bumpers are so cheap that I just take it off and replace it. More mechanically skilled folks could probably make something to screw into the release button to add the 2mm, and I’d expect that a mini or standard soft release would work. The joint at the lower third of my right index finger (the ventral aspect of the head of it’s proximal phalanx to be exact) rests on the (2mm extended) release button. A slight rolling motion, pressing the finger into the camera releases the shutter. This is somewhat similar to the rolling motion of the distal phalanx described by Jaapv in his M10 FAQ post on how to hold an M10. In addition to being able to smoothly release the shutter, the right index finger along the speed dial and top plate also adds stability. I would add that the 2mm micro soft release also enables one to shoot from the hip at right angles from the direction one is facing. The camera hangs from the shoulder with the left hand inconspicuously resting on the camera with the base of the thumb (the head of the first metacarpal actually) over the shutter release. Then a gentle extension of the thumb releases the shutter.