M8 Upgrade - It's Official!

[ChipNovaMac]

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I am not complaining. The Hasselblad upgrade from the H3D to the H3DII is $15,000. There is some difference in the images due to much lower heat for that camera, but $1800 upgrade for the M8 after two very intensive years of use sounds reasonable. I will probably have taken 25,000 images with it by then.

 

David

 

Having gotten mine just a few months ago, I really hope that upgrades won't be "stacked" - meaning that I have to do this one first in order to get the next one. I would not mind doing an upgrade every two years just to keep the two year warranty going with some nice updates....

[geoffreyg]

OK, OK - its a nifty strategy. Meets their needs and ours - keeps residual values up, gives cash flow, allows one some comfort level with their $5k camera.....

 

Still, there are some mixed feelings around here. Maybe its due to the 8 weeks that my M8 just spent in NJ, with a dead shutter....only to be returned a week before this announcement. Or maybe its the receipt of the "still parts on backorder" letter after I got the camera back! (glad that wasn't true!).

 

So i'd break the news down into two categories - one about the idea and facts of the upgrade, the other price related. The upgrade idea is clever enough, adn probably worthwhile, but to me not for that price. I thought the M8 was pretty fully priced when bought, and with a few side issues, yes, fully priced.

 

Methinks to sit this one out - pgrade the firmware, and if need be, trade the camera in a few years for the next stage or two of upgrades. Or maybe just wait for the dollar to recover against the euro!

 

Geoff

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think some are confusing two issues. Read the email.

 

1) On Feb 1, the expected M8 firmware update will be posted on the Leica web site, free to all who have M8s. Leica and Guy have already mentioned some of its benefits.

 

2) If one purchases the upgrade, which includes some kind of change to the shutter, Leica will update the firmware to match. Seems to me that goes without saying; don't know why they mention that at all. Sort of like saying "And if you order the new car, we'll even see to it that it's painted in the color you want."

 

 

I may be misunderstanding the posts, but don't conflate the standard M8 firmware change with the change necessitated by the new version of the camera.

 

--HC

 

 

Howard how it reads in my mind is 1.201 is for all camera's and there will always be the same basic elements in both bodies but the upgrade camera may need something else on a spec level if i could call it that. But the camera's will basically have the same functionality besides the actual shutter stuff. So in the future we may actually see two firmware's upload one for the M8 as of today specs and one for the upgraded specs. But they will have the same elements. Hope that clears it up and that is how I read there statement.

 

Obviously the sync speed difference alone will call for a different spec between the camera's. As of today the camera flash cuts out at 1/250 with the new upgrade they will have to make it cut out at 1/180. So things like that will be different

[ho_co]

Thanks for agreeing with my assessment, Guy. You've now stated it a third way, so the confusion should be behind us.

 

 

... However it does seem a bit dubious (and perhaps this is because I am not a computer programmer) that Leica will continue indefinitely with parallel firmware for cameras with and without upgrades, especially as there come to be several upgrade packages. ....

... So in the future we may actually see two firmware's upload one for the M8 as of today specs and one for the upgraded specs. But they will have the same elements. ...

Correct, but that's already the case today with the two versions of the camera already on the market. You don't need differing firmware packages because the firmware will check what components are in the camera and install the relevant code. Mark Norton examined the current firmware, which came out when 1.111 (I think that's the version number) was announced, and found that there was a branchpoint based on the camera at hand.

 

IMHO it's up to the programmer to be sure the firmware updates properly. If you asked people to decide which package to download, you'd get them blaming Leica when their own bad choice of download turned the camera into an M-brick.

 

 

 

... the motor noise after the shutter release is that bing silenced???

Andy Piper ('adan') covered that in the rumor thread, http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/44519-no-m9-only-m8-2-a.html. Slower shutter means lower spring tension means lower torque needed to wind the shutter etc. Check out his explanation. Quieting the shutter quiets the cocking.

 

--HC

[phovsho]

I understand this is an upgrade for all M8s including new ones. The M8 remains the same.

I thinking that this makes second hand M8s more attractive than new ones e.g., buy a second hand camera, get the upgrade and get a new 2 year warranty plus maintennance check.

M

[luigi bertolotti]

....mail arrived this night....

[lars_bergquist]

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A well-kept Leica II from 1932, original shape, is worth more today than one upgraded to IIIa with IIIf synch. So keep your pants on.

 

I was told more than half a year before the lauch of the M8 that it would be upgradeable. I told you so. This was expected. Even film M cameras were to some extent upgradeable. You could even take a late M2 and put M4-P frames in it, though that would of course have been sacrilege. But Leica would have done it. As far as I know, they will still do it!

 

But even in a restaurant with three stars in the Guide Michelin, you pay for the dinner after you have eaten it. I will leave to early adopters to adopt new firmware, and do it myself when I have seen evidence that it is worth the trouble (and that it won't give me diarrhoea later that night). Especially as I get good results out of my M8 now, with 1.0.2. Half a century of experience with advanced electronics has made me extremely sceptical about 'upgrades'. Show me. But welcome back to the classical business model, Leica.

 

The old man from the Age of the IIIa

[carstenw]

I guess I'd feel a little bit like a chump in going for this upgrade. You can get the firmware upgrade for free, which means your $1800 will pay for two things: a new LCD cover-glass, and a quieter shutter that drops a stop in range.

 

It sounds like there is one more item that you missed, apart from the 2-year warranty extension: an included full overhaul. This is something that Leica has always offered, and which it makes sense to pay for once in a while. They go over the whole camera and make sure that everything works well. I had this done to my M6 recently, and in my case (due to M8 problems and buying the M6 as a temporary replacement which I ended up keeping), I didn't have to pay for it. What does a factory service normally cost?

[Ecaton]

The concept of upgrading sounds compelling. Yet, in this case, you do not get what you pay for. A pure manual, (German) labour intense process to handle losgisitcs, replace shutter and screen produces as far as I am concerned, an evidently unattractive ratio between cost/price and value. The extended two year warranty is nice, but should be offered as a seperate option, at much lower cost, including a full service of the camera.

If, in my humble opinion, relatively insignificant improvements (which yet have to show their relevance for picture taking) cost already as much as a new D3 or E3, how much might Solms have to charge to replace electronics or even upgrade a sensor?

 

Being a hapy owner/user of the M8 for more than a year now, this is the first time that a feel the urge to voice my concern and disappointment about Solms' strategy. They seem to be more concerned about their revenue and cash flow rather than trying to help preserving the value of "our investments" (which aren't investments anyway, wherefore the latter is pure marketing talk).

Meanwhile, the M8 market might be pretty saturated, and without knowing actual numbers, I expect M8 sales to have slowed down significantly year over year. The announced strategy will allow Leica to substitute at least some of their lost M8 sales revenue with revenue from upgrading. The prepayment helps reducing their financing costs, at the expense of customers. I.e. those who understand the concept of time value of money realise the upgrading price exceeding the officially announced 1200 Euros.

 

I'm not sure Leica's strategy is good enough to support the company's long term survival.

[biglouis]

BTW, last night, this had to be the fastest growing thread ever on the LUG. As I was reading it last night, new pages were appearing almost as quickly as I was reading the posts.

 

Seems to have slackened of now.................

[mhoersch]

What about venetian blinds, madly scrolling menus, camera lock-ups?

 

Cleaned up . I still have a battery issue though...

 

If this turns out to be true I will be more than happy!!!!!!

[twom4]

This is funny.

 

Leica Ms have a top shutter speed of 1/1000s since inception in the 50's. Most people hardly used it. I know I rarely use it. Even when using Noctilux.

 

Leica M8 has top shutter speed of 1/8000s. What's the use? Sport photography? How many will even use 1/1000 when high ISO noise is so high? Whether it's 1/4000s or 1/8000s is academic at best, IMHO.

 

It is amusing to talk about top shutter speeds that hardly get utilized.

 

:D

[carstenw]

It is amusing to talk about top shutter speeds that hardly get utilized.

 

Well, one owner lives in Haifa, another one also in Israel, some in Arab countries, and another two or three in Arizona... These places are seriously bright, so if you hope to get narrow depth of field, with the lowest ISO being 160, I am sure that it will be used. I have used it on my camera and I live in grey Berlin! Still, I would trade it for a quieter camera in a heart-beat.

[wattsy]

Meanwhile, the M8 market might be pretty saturated, and without knowing actual numbers, I expect M8 sales to have slowed down significantly year over year. The announced strategy will allow Leica to substitute at least some of their lost M8 sales revenue with revenue from upgrading. The prepayment helps reducing their financing costs, at the expense of customers. I.e. those who understand the concept of time value of money realise the upgrading price exceeding the officially announced 1200 Euros.

 

That's my interpretation too. Now the company has essentially gone private, there are no public shareholders to call on to try and raise cash. I guess the nearest thing to issuing new shares through a rights-issue is to sell €1200 vouchers to loyal customers.

[GarethC]

Reading the FQ and this thread some questions arose for me that some people may be able to shed light on.

 

1. Of least importance to me but maybe to others, is the warranty transferable? ie if you buy a used M8 will Leica continue to upgrade free of charge?

2. In the FAQ they mentioned possible future upgrades to include the sensor. Surely the M8 could not be transofrmed into a FF rangefinder could it? I was under the impression that this kind of modification would require a change to the housing itself in order to accommodate a greater distance between the sensor plane and lens.

3. Given the horror stories of turnaround times to Solms it seems that Leica have smartened up with the certificate thing but any idea of guesstimates on turnaround times? It would have been nice if they handled it head on and said "we are shooting for a turnaround time of X as a response to past complaints"

4. As an afterthought, we have all read about Canon's estimates of I think it was around 150,000 shots per shutter. It would take me a long time to get close to that as I'm too used to shooting film so have never felt the need to take the machine gun approach. Is there any reason why the shutter would fail purely because it's been in hte camera for, let's say 10 years?

 

Personally, I welcome this announcement and the attempt by Leica to keep my business, I think it's inspired, especially in the world of throwaway electronics that we live in.

[JumpStart]

I am thrilled about this news.

 

This is the only Camera Manufacturer in the world that has offered to make my equipment continuously state of the art. It means my camera doesn't need to change, and I don't need to replace it.

 

Nikon, Canon and Sony have never made an offer like this one. I think we should be pleased with the offer, and the commitment they have made.

 

I am hopeful they will find a way to increase the turn time. 4 weeks is a long time to be without my friend, but I will manage.

 

To the nay sayers..... come on. This is great news. Stop the complaining already.

 

I'm off to PMA now. Hope to express my happiness when I get a free moment from our booth.

 

DBK

[JumpStart]

I am thrilled about this news.

 

This is the only Camera Manufacturer in the world that has offered to make my equipment continuously state of the art. It means my camera doesn't need to change, and I don't need to replace it.

 

Nikon, Canon and Sony have never made an offer like this one. I think we should be pleased with the offer, and the commitment they have made.

 

I am hopeful they will find a way to shorten the turn time. 4 weeks is a long time to be without my friend, but I will manage.

 

To the nay sayers..... come on. This is great news. Stop the complaining already.

 

I'm off to PMA now. Hope to express my happiness when I get a free moment from our booth.

 

DBK

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Darren I need to look for Jumpstart is that correct for PMA. Hope to see you there. Guy

[fotografr]

I am thrilled about this news.

 

To the nay sayers..... come on. This is great news. Stop the complaining already.

 

 

DBK

 

The ones complaining the most will probably be first in line for the upgrade. Then when it's done, they'll complain that the upgrade took too long, cost too much, that the shutter isn't totally silent, that the sapphire screen is too reflective, that the camera came back with a spec of dust on the sensor and that the warranty should be longer. Do you see the pattern?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[twom4]

The ones complaining the most will probably be first in line for the upgrade. Then when it's done, they'll complain that the upgrade took too long, cost too much, that the shutter isn't totally silent, that the sapphire screen is too reflective, that the camera came back with a spec of dust on the sensor and that the warranty should be longer. Do you see the pattern?

 

Spot on Brent.

:D