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Conversions, upgrades, modiefied ones


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In principle in the conversions, the serial number is kept, but the engravings can be modified to be modernized have seen cameras with a very old serial number but with Gmbh or DBP engravings, sometimes we find DRP with Gmbh, on the 359122, the engraving "monté en sarre" disappeared ...? the Leitz engravers had no procedure ...?

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb PG Black nickel:

In principle in the conversions, the serial number is kept, but the engravings can be modified to be modernized have seen cameras with a very old serial number but with Gmbh or DBP engravings, sometimes we find DRP with Gmbh, on the 359122, the engraving "monté en sarre" disappeared ...? the Leitz engravers had no procedure ...?

yes, Leitz always kept the original number,  one of the reasons was  customs, camera was in repair only. For conversions regular production parts were used and in case of top covers they were pre-produced with proper finish and engravings  except serial number, this was then done for the particular camera. Yes, it's a pity that converted Monte... lost this additional engraving, possibly the template for engraving Monte... was scraped at Leitz before this conversion has been done.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Ambro51:

Are there any instances of a factory “unconversion”? In that perhaps the owner realized they preferred their A or C in its original configuration rather than with the added rangefinder top or slow speeds?  

yes, indeed they are...However if done at Leitz than on special order, rather then I think that it was done by third party using Leica parts. One example of such re-conversion (Rückbau), 3 digit Elmax will be a subject of one of next articles. Is ist possible to identify such re-conversion?  In many cases yes, knowing which parts were used in production for original, non-converted camera

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one of most interesting items in my collection of converted screwmounts is this one, 4 digit (8699), former IA with Elmar. Analysing the parts (visible from external and inside the camera) I found evidence of camera being at least 4 times converted by Leitz (1929-1937). One of the stages was non- standart IC with Hektor, 3 digit camera number may be found on DOF. Additional engraving visible on DOF ( and not visible ,at the back of camera) is third party, initials of the previous owner

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Good idea, this "thread"! it forces to review and precise the collector's classification. I started yesterday evening, comparing each serial in my lists to those in Dennis Laney's second edition of "Leica Collector's Guide". What a job! So, I will only start today with what I checked.

1. Under my "Leica I interchangeable", there is a nº 27244 (1930) whose viewfinder has been removed and replaced by an unpainted piece of brass: I supposed it was a private modification, until somebody sent me a photo of a totally similar nº 60685. It seems that the mod was performed on request by Leitz for microscope use, and that the plate was left unpainted for cost reason.

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2. The Leica I nº 19655 (1929) has been modified (by Leitz agency in UK?) to allow the use of the Ross Teleros 4inches F 5.5 nº 127854, further to the original Elmar. There is a removable "cover" with suited hinged aperture for the viewfinder. I know that an other Leica I (nº 127868 in Neil Wright's collection) was also modified to use the Teleros.

3. Among my Leica II, three were upgraded from Leica I : nº 5396 (1926/27), nº 15476 (1929) and nº 60244 (1931). I found photos of the two first : the II black with "ears" for strap, and the II normal that was later gilded (photo also included).

4. My Leica Standard 30209 was upgraded from a 1930 Leica I, but looks like a real one, with square accessory shoe and extensible return button.

5. I do not know if my Leica 72 (18x24) has been "upgraded" : it has synchro flash like a IIIf, but all images I saw in Lager or Laney show both versions without any mention.

6. I had two "upgraded" Leica III : nº 765 based on a 1925 Leica I, and nº 88146 coming from a Leica II of 1932, the slow speeds dial having not been installed and replaced by a simple vulcanite covered disc.

7. Last for today : the prototype Leica 250 (black) nº 114051 has been upgraded to GG standards (collection of my friend Jean-Paul Bachely, also in Brussels). It was discovered after I personally revealed the strictly original prototype nº 114052 in chrome, whose characteristics are clearly visible on the photo I also publish.

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Just want to mention an anecdote concerning the spirit inside Leitz when dealing with customer's requests Hans-Günter Kisselbach shows a note from Oskar Barnack in the repair-book how to handle a repair in 1930: the customer gets a complete new camera, the old one will be stored away.

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25 minutes ago, romanus53 said:

Just want to mention an anecdote concerning the spirit inside Leitz when dealing with customer's requests Hans-Günter Kisselbach shows a note from Oskar Barnack in the repair-book how to handle a repair in 1930: the customer gets a complete new camera, the old one will be stored away.

Do you know where the store is ?

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And now, a second part that required even more time than the first one, and confirmed the interest of the research this thread needs : I dicovered discrepancies between my lists and my photos! But I will make the story short : here are my photos for Leica IIIa, IIIf, IIc and IIf.

1. In the list of the ten Leica IIIa that passed through my collection, no less than four were "upgrades" : nº 41438 and 43900 started their life as 1930 Leica I, nº 145360 as a 1934 Leica III, and nº 325643 also as a Leica III, but chrome and of 1934.

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2. On the side of the Leica IIIf (my lists confirm a total number of 36), it is worst : nine are not "true" ones. Nº 7691 was a Leica I in 1928, nº 121573 and 126238 were Leica III in 1933 and 1934 respectively (the year where I was born..). Nº 241201 is based on a Leica III of 1937/38, nº 385660 on a wartime IIIc (1941-42), nº438937, like all the remainers on a Leica IIIc (1946-47), nº462837 (1948-49), nº 479222 (1948-49) and finally nº 509242 (1950). I publish the photos I found.

When searching, I dicovered that I had with nº 690009, a Leica IIIf from the first set built with delay lever in 1954. And that my IIIf "Made in Canada" and its Summarit lens were "true"!

Enough for tonight! I will have Leica IIc and IIf - the material is ready - tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

 

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Pecole:

I do not know if my Leica 72 (18x24) has been "upgraded" : it has synchro flash like a IIIf, but all images I saw in Lager or Laney show both versions without any mention.

No. It is not, Pecole. All Midland cameras were produced based on IIIa sync. Cameras from Wetzlar production exist in both versions depending when produced

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19 minutes ago, jerzy said:

Midland cameras

Forgive off topic question, but did the Midland use the L script seal. I ask because I have a Midland camera with this seal, but don,t know if it is a factory seal or from a Wetzlar service. Realise could still be either if Midland did use it.

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39 minutes ago, Pecole said:

I had with nº 690009, a Leica IIIf from the first set built with delay lever in 1954

My 485593 IIIc/IIIf BD conversion has a delay lever as have No 462837 and another one, possibly 438937, shown by Pecole above. My 485593 was apparently converted in 1956 according to the following received from the Leica Archives

Modell:                             Leica IIIc

Serial number:                485593

Ordner No.:                     22189

Delivered date:               11.10.1949

Delivered on/to:             to Leitz in Berlin

Code word “LOOPN”= with remunerated Elmar 3,5/5cm

Repair book:

“Repair-No.: 23428= entrance to the factory at 06.12.1956

Serial numbering circle Collectors Guide from 480001-495000= Leica IIIc (II) from 1949/ 1950 , Serial numbering circle Leica Historica List from 460001-495000= Leica IIIc from (II)/ 1949/1950

 The relevant question here is whether the type of 'upgrade' possible varied depending on the date on which the camera went into the factory. As far as I know the delayed action (other than for the IIId) started with the Red Dial around 1954. In this case my camera went to the factory in late 1956 making it possible to 'create' a Black Dial camera with delayed action. I wonder was it the same for Pecole's two cameras? 

For what its worth My 455660 was converted from a Ic to a IIf Black Dial in either 1954 or 1962.  It is not clear on which occasion the 'upgrade' was done and the only details received from the Leica Archives are below.

Model:                                                 Leica Ic

Serial number:                                    455660

Delivery date:                                     03.10.1949

Delivered an/to:                                 to Bauer to Düsseldorf (former representation)

Code word:  "OEINO & SBOOI " =  The Leica Ic was delivered together with an Elmar 3.5/5cm and a viewfinder 50mm chromed together.

Repair book:

1.Repair number 20007/Entrance to the repair plant at the 14.01.1954

2nd Repair number: 15877/Entrance to the factory for repair at 20.01.1962

Serial number circle 455001-460000 in the Collectors Guide = Leica Ic 1949/50, Serial number circle Leica Historica List 455001-460000 = Leica Ic 1949/50

The use of the repair book for 'upgrades' indicates the practice of describing them as 'repairs' to avoid import duty issues.

I am posting these here to illustrate issues in determining the date and nature of such modifications.

Comments would be most welcome.

William

 

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Leica IID upgraded from Leica I. With original and early Hektor 5cm. Is that what it is ?

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Edited by Kongsbak
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I will close my contribution to this thread in publishing what I had prepared yesterday : the modified cameras in my Leica IIc (I had seven in total) and IIf (eight).

But I will start publishing a photo that "escaped" yesterday in the Leica IIIf review, and that I thing particularly interesting. It is the one of Leica IIIf nº 385660, a former IIIc of 1941-42. Despite conversion, the capot still wears the wartime military engravings "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" and "Fl. Nº 3879". Further point of interest, the black flash synchro scale is on a riveted plate instead of engraved on the body...what is logical considering the still existing wartime engravings.

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In my seven Leica IIc, I had a black nº 7246 transformed from a 1928 Leica I, the only traces of which are the color and the serial.

Here are the two photos of modified Leica IIf I had : the nº 168218 (originally a 1935 black Leica III) and nº 457600, an upgraded Leica Ic manufactured in 1949-50. On this last, the black flash synchro scale is on a riveted plate.

Finally, the only serie of Leica "untouched" in my collection was the eleven Leica IIIb I had. And even... Two of them, serials 345285 and 345332, were engraved "R. AERONAUTICA" (for Regia Aeronautica, the Mussolinian Air Force). They had, in right front, an added (in Italy) big flash contact and, forcibly, some internal modifications. Let us consider that as some kind of "updating", despite that the serials are right for the model of Leica.

 

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Kongsbak said:

Leica IID upgraded from Leica I. With original and early Hektor 5cm. Is that what it is ?

Perfectly right, Leif : it is a typical conversion. The original Leica I bearing the serial 39466 was munufactured in 1930 and, if the Hektor lens is original, like it seems, the Leica I(A) with Hektor lens has always been a relative rarity.

Edited by Pecole
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1 hour ago, Kongsbak said:

Leica IID upgraded from Leica I. With original and early Hektor 5cm. Is that what it is ?

The numbered 7 O'Clock Hektor may have been added at the time of conversion to a IID. The serial number for the Hektor is from 1931 or 1932 whereas the camera seems to have been from 1930 originally. I have never seen a I Model A with a numbered lens. I have shown previously a converted to 7 O'Clock lens from a I Model A and that one had no serial number. I could be wrong and there are always exceptions, of course, but I am just following the numbers.

William

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