luigi bertolotti

I think 1936, possible also 1935... my (quick) evidences are #172xxx with DRP on the lower position and #188.xxx in the upper... surely someone else can have a better/narrower "window", supposed that there is a "threshold s/n".

Well.. it's very probable it is not a "bad copy".. but this does not mean that some little adjustment could be necessary... after all is a f 1.4 lens mounted on a very very old body with a RF mechanism built when 1,4 aperture simply didn't exist (1,5 was not so far, anyway... 😁) ; if you plan to use it wide open maybe a control/adjustment by a good lab could be useful.

"dirty" link... this one is clean https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet

An extensive research on patents about such wideangles would be surely an interesting matter... and a lengthy one 😉 : starting from the Wagner/Schneider 1279959 and looking at the other patents referenced into, you can have a certain idea of the timeline of this kind of lenses. to say, double symmetrical superwideangles : i do report my provisionary conclusion... but do not pretend at all to emulate my compatriot Cavina 😀 : the story is surely more complex... I found that the referenced patents do, in turn, reference other patents too... anyway a quick part of the story can be : - 1953 : Bertele (in the name of himself - resident in Switzerland) applies for a patent in Switzerland : symmetrical design - 8 el. - 90° coverage - schema applies to a 100mm f4,5 lens (and f5 and f 5,5 with minor variants) - 1954 Bertele applies for patent in Deutschland for the same design (the Swiss patent is quoted) : granted in 1960 - 1956 : Baluteau (France - in the name of Societè Optique et Mecanique de Paris - it is I think the entity well known as S.O.M.) applies for a US patent for a similar design : he claims "over 90°" coverage and draws a 100mm f 5,5 lens. Quotes Bertele and Russinov patents. Granted in 1958 - 1962 : Schneider applies for a French patent : usual schema 4+4, design quotes 100mm f 3,4 lens - 90° coverage; They declare that the same design has been filed for a Deutsch patent in March 1961, at their own name (Jos Schneider) - And finally we arrive to the Wagner/Schneider patent of 1963 , as Martin said, always for a 100mm focal aperture up to 3,4 with 5,6 as a good compromise to achieve a less costly and heavy construction. My opinion, coming back to our original topic is that probably no specific patent was applied for the 21mm : all those designs and patents do refer to a std FL of 100mm and none of the focals actually implemented by Schneider (Super Angulons and maybe the previous Angulons) and Zeiss (Biogons) is quoted (probably SOM Berthiot made similar Wideangles... I don't know) . And, as Cavina wrote Bertele and Russinov were indeed the real fathers of this kind of design.

I have time now ☺️ and thanks to Uli, quickly found the 1279959 - Werner Wagner / Jos. Schneider . https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?window=1&space=main&content=erweitert&action=treffer&firstdoc=1#errormsg No doubt, even reading very bad Deutsch, that it is IT, the SA 21 3,4 : lens' schema is as published in Leitz docs and the 3,4 aperture is quoted in the first page, Submitted in 1963 but as far as I can understand, granted only in 1968. A patent granted to Bertele in 1960 is quoted (10542488) Btw, text is available also in editable form, good for google translator 😉

There is no built in facility for parallax correction on IIIf (IIIG is the only LTM body with) : not a significant issue over 2-3 meters... to avoid the problem, you can always find an addon Viewfinder for 50mm with parallax correction (on the vertical side - the shoe in which you fit the finder is almost exactly positioned on the horizontal side) - beware, the excellent and common SBOOI has no parallax correction

Some collateral infos on its origin (in italian) ; https://www.nocsensei.com/camera/tecnica/marco-cavina/marcocavina/leitz-super-angulon-m-21mm-14-e-21mm-134/ About glass types : this one is an interesting article, but refers to the SA 21 f4 for Leicaflex... also a Schneider design but a later one, in respect to the SA 21 3,4 for M. http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Leitz_21_4_Super-Angulon-R/00_pag.htm

Some device related to traffic lights ? Or to register from some instrument/meter (collateral to the well known Postkamera breed 🤔) ? (Edit after seeing the above pics) : apparently, there is not a shutter in proper terms (*)... this can tend towards Jaap's hipotesis on Astrophotography, where xposures can be in the range of several minutes (*) What does exist along the axis of the lens ? Where the film does slide ? By logic, UNDER the metal plate with the "window" in pic #1)

The feel to use a really OLD MECHANISM : I don't consider M3/M6 (definitely "modern") but concentrate on IIIc... btw, a IIIc was my first Leica and the oldest I used regularly as my standard camera (1979-82), and had in house, for some years, a decent IA with Elmar. - The sound, both in shooting and in advancing/cocking is DIFFERENT : you have the feel of a simplest / noisiest mechanism - Set the focus READING the distance scale !! This is completely another experience vs. the typical work through VF/RF... even the way of moving the Elmar's focus results, in practical, different... (the use of knob is less "natural"--- one can find more natural to rotate takin the front ring of the Elmar... 😉) Also. I observed a someway strange fact : the positioning of the distance scale onto the barrel of the Elmar occurred with the "new" interchangable lenses... but, by paradox, is a position that would have been more "useful" on the fixed mount/no RF bodies.. when you MUST read the scale, if it is on the flange it is less easy to read. - You feel, in general, to have in your hands something lighter / smaller / less robust.

Neither me🤔.. But am curios to see what will be...

OUCH ! Never bought a camera on eby... but this is tempting... too good to be true ?

IF the MP you quote is a good buy, take it. If you want a good collectible at a reasonable cost and usability, a M4 P black fits fine both goals : a good complement to M3 if you still like film.

The screw quoted by William is indeed oddly positioned (supposed that the Elmar is fully screwed into the body); moreover, the screw itself has a not original look... I fear that the Elmar, taken by some old/damaged IA, was adapted/reworked by someone with no great care and precision... is it coupled to the rangefinder ? This a delicate rework,,,

Intriguing device... why do you define it as "non optical" ? What focals does it provide ? I read 13,5 cm and 9-5 (two frames ?) and suppose the 3rd set is for 3,5 cm... but cannot read...

It would be interesting searching in the factory records where the first batches of 250 were actually delivered... the fact that the Italian importer - cattaneo - had printed a detailed leaflet in June 1934, with prices, codes, and even basic accessories, makes to think that some items from the first "regulalr" batches (120 - apparently 1934) were indeed delivered abroad. BTW,,, 2280 It. Liras in 1934 was a noticeable amount... a popular song of the era said "se potessi avere / 1000 Lire al mese..." ("Oh could I cash in, 1000 Lire a month ..." 😁A honest FIAT car - not luxury - of the era (Fiat 508) was in the range of 10.000 Liras