Is it worth consider to downgrade from m11 to m9p in 2023?

[hunglephotography]

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Hello everyone. 
 

i was new to leica back last few months. Finance was not my concern initially so i joint leica with a new openbox m11. 
 

after few months with the m11 i kindda want to sell it and get m11 but still hesitating a bit about its pros and cons of both camera. 
 

m11:

- what i dont like: the color and had to work a lots more in pp to correct color and remove color cast. freeze occasionally even after update firmware to 2.0.1. Recently updated to 2.0.2 but hasn’t test it yet. I hope it can fix it. 

- what i like which not available on m9p: live view is clear to check the photo, i never shoot film so I’m still learning how to get correct exposure manually without liveview. Fotos for quick photos transferring. But since i have to put it in lightroom for pp. it’s not really a pros if i want to get the best photo 

m9p: 

why i want it: color. I have researched a lots and find its color is always something everyone desire. I would love to have good jpeg which i dont have to pp for too long. i dont shoot like a machine gun so buffer time and 2 frames continuous dont bother me. 
 

as experienced as you guys, can you give me some advise? Its quite tempting right now as i can spend the extra money after tradeoff to get an used summilux. 
 

many thanks. 
cheer and have a nice week ahead

 

[charlesphoto99]

6 hours ago, hunglephotography said:

Hello everyone. 
 

i was new to leica back last few months. Finance was not my concern initially so i joint leica with a new openbox m11. 
 

after few months with the m11 i kindda want to sell it and get m11 but still hesitating a bit about its pros and cons of both camera. 
 

m11:

- what i dont like: the color and had to work a lots more in pp to correct color and remove color cast. freeze occasionally even after update firmware to 2.0.1. Recently updated to 2.0.2 but hasn’t test it yet. I hope it can fix it. 

- what i like which not available on m9p: live view is clear to check the photo, i never shoot film so I’m still learning how to get correct exposure manually without liveview. Fotos for quick photos transferring. But since i have to put it in lightroom for pp. it’s not really a pros if i want to get the best photo 

m9p: 

why i want it: color. I have researched a lots and find its color is always something everyone desire. I would love to have good jpeg which i dont have to pp for too long. i dont shoot like a machine gun so buffer time and 2 frames continuous dont bother me. 
 

as experienced as you guys, can you give me some advise? Its quite tempting right now as i can spend the extra money after tradeoff to get an used summilux. 
 

many thanks. 
cheer and have a nice week ahead

 

Have you actually used an M9 before? You'd be okay with a shutter sound that makes one consider grabbing a pair of earplugs, and an lcd screen that comes off a mid-nineties Nokia, and rarely shooting above iso 1250? Don't get me wrong, I love my beat to hell M9, and the images it made (esp the color) but as far as the shooting experience goes, it is  subpar to an M10-R/P or an M11. 

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[charlesphoto99]

Also, you shouldn't be post-processing jpegs, no matter the camera it's from. 

[jaapv]

If you shoot jpgs you will be rather disappointed with an M9. They are certainly not on the level of the M10/M11.
As for colour, it is not difficult to create a near match to M9 colour, even make a it a default , provided you use DNG. So I think that you will be not happy at all with such a swap. 

[evikne]

Many people prefer the colors of the M10/M10-P to the M11. An M10-P has many advantages over a rather outdated M9-P, such as live view and much better ISO capabilities. 

[Olaf_ZG]

And Cobalt has m9 profiles for the m10, didn’t try them myself, but this could be useful if you aren’t experienced with PP or don’t want to spend too much time.

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Proposed fix for 'bad M11 color', which may or may not be acceptable in your workflow: 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mzbe said:

Proposed fix for 'bad M11 color', which may or may not be acceptable in your workflow: 

 

... another side benefit of the DXO step is the ability to translate M11 colors (within reason) to different camera looks:

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There is a long list. Here are the Leica options:

[jdlaing]

11 hours ago, hunglephotography said:

Hello everyone. 
 

i was new to leica back last few months. Finance was not my concern initially so i joint leica with a new openbox m11. 
 

after few months with the m11 i kindda want to sell it and get m11 but still hesitating a bit about its pros and cons of both camera. 
 

m11:

- what i dont like: the color and had to work a lots more in pp to correct color and remove color cast. freeze occasionally even after update firmware to 2.0.1. Recently updated to 2.0.2 but hasn’t test it yet. I hope it can fix it. 

- what i like which not available on m9p: live view is clear to check the photo, i never shoot film so I’m still learning how to get correct exposure manually without liveview. Fotos for quick photos transferring. But since i have to put it in lightroom for pp. it’s not really a pros if i want to get the best photo 

m9p: 

why i want it: color. I have researched a lots and find its color is always something everyone desire. I would love to have good jpeg which i dont have to pp for too long. i dont shoot like a machine gun so buffer time and 2 frames continuous dont bother me. 
 

as experienced as you guys, can you give me some advise? Its quite tempting right now as i can spend the extra money after tradeoff to get an used summilux. 
 

many thanks. 
cheer and have a nice week ahead

 

It’s generally not worth the decision to downgrade. Too many advancements.

[Malvolio]

No

[Jeff S]

When the M9 was released, folks here generally disliked and complained about the colors… and red edges… and cracked sensors… and SD card compatibility issues… and buffer issues… and shutter re-cock noises…and more.  Funny how the circle continues.  Eventually FW changes were made; and users figured out how to adjust their workflow to better accommodate their preferences. Then corrosion happened. But the CCD followers remained steadfast.

Better to patiently work on your skills and techniques than to blame the gear IMO. I don’t own the M11, but if I couldn’t make nice pics and prints with it, chances are I couldn’t do any better with an M9… and vice versa.  Both are capable machines, once learned.

Jeff
 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Jeff S

[venom]

21 hours ago, hunglephotography said:

Hello everyone. 
 

i was new to leica back last few months. Finance was not my concern initially so i joint leica with a new openbox m11. 
 

after few months with the m11 i kindda want to sell it and get m11 but still hesitating a bit about its pros and cons of both camera. 
 

m11:

- what i dont like: the color and had to work a lots more in pp to correct color and remove color cast. freeze occasionally even after update firmware to 2.0.1. Recently updated to 2.0.2 but hasn’t test it yet. I hope it can fix it. 

- what i like which not available on m9p: live view is clear to check the photo, i never shoot film so I’m still learning how to get correct exposure manually without liveview. Fotos for quick photos transferring. But since i have to put it in lightroom for pp. it’s not really a pros if i want to get the best photo 

m9p: 

why i want it: color. I have researched a lots and find its color is always something everyone desire. I would love to have good jpeg which i dont have to pp for too long. i dont shoot like a machine gun so buffer time and 2 frames continuous dont bother me. 
 

as experienced as you guys, can you give me some advise? Its quite tempting right now as i can spend the extra money after tradeoff to get an used summilux. 
 

many thanks. 
cheer and have a nice week ahead

 

If you’re not happy with the Sony sensors look you can go to the M10/P/R, but I wouldn’t go any lower than that. Then you can edit those to taste. 

[dpitt]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:32 AM, hunglephotography said:

 

why i want it: color. I have researched a lots and find its color is always something everyone desire. I would love to have good jpeg which i dont have to pp for too long. i dont shoot like a machine gun so buffer time and 2 frames continuous dont bother me. 

I think you would make a big mistake trying to use the M9 as a JPEG camera. I still own one and would probably keep it, even when I upgrade to M10 or M11. There is nothing wrong with the results I get, but only with help of the extended possibilities of DNG files and a little bit of PP.

The M9 has limited DR compared to modern digital M camera's like M11 or M10. If you want to nail it in JPEG, your exposure point must be set with care on exactly the right zone. And even then you could better it with some processed DNG file. At best, I would shoot it with DNG +JPEG so that I can fall back on DNG where needed.

Using a M9 today could bring much joy if you like to improve your skills and would appreciate a more film like experience:

1. The back screen is excellent for setting the nice and simple menu's, and then forget them + shoot away. At times I do not look at the screen all day. I do not bother to check it because it is of not much help to inspect focus and even less for colors and exposure when outside. Is is not as bright as the one on the M11 and has much fewer pixels. So if I use it to CHIMP that is to check my framing. Experience makes me confident of what I will get without checking, just like  film, I get that anticipation feeling until I see the results on my computer screen.
2. Auto WB is bad on the M9. An other reason why I shoot DNG. JPEGS are hard to correct for WB in post processing. If you need to use the JPEGS, you have to set the WB to the best value when shooting.
3. Because of the limited ISO range, I often shoot it at ISO 160 and under expose when I do not have enough light. Or when I want to do HDR like images. This beats shooting at the correct ISO value. My C1P v23 is much better at pulling up shadows and noise reduction than the old firmware. Sometimes I can under expose up to 4 stops, which will make it hard to see anything on the back screen even if I wanted to check. In camera I think I would only go to ISO 640, if I want to use the JPEG OOC, above that it gets noisy.
4. The limited menu is wonderful and easy to set. Startup time is minimal (instant) and it never freezes on you.
5. Because it has no LV or EVF, you have to imagine the shot in your mind, and framing wider than 28mm is impossible without OVF. I do not mind, but the RF is all you have to get focus and framing right.

What I listed above, are all limitations.

They will challenge you, but they will also free your mind to focus on the artistic side of the process. That is what makes this camera so nice for me. And of course you often get little gems of shots with it, along with probably a little more failed exposures or other issues, but the gems make up for that.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by dpitt

[hunglephotography]

8 hours ago, dpitt said:

I think you would make a big mistake trying to use the M9 as a JPEG camera. I still own one and would probably keep it, even when I upgrade to M10 or M11. There is nothing wrong with the results I get, but only with help of the extended possibilities of DNG files and a little bit of PP.

The M9 has limited DR compared to modern digital M camera's like M11 or M10. If you want to nail it in JPEG, your exposure point must be set with care on exactly the right zone. And even then you could better it with some processed DNG file. At best, I would shoot it with DNG +JPEG so that I can fall back on DNG where needed.

Using a M9 today could bring much joy if you like to improve your skills and would appreciate a more film like experience:

1. The back screen is excellent for setting the nice and simple menu's, and then forget them + shoot away. At times I do not look at the screen all day. I do not bother to check it because it is of not much help to inspect focus and even less for colors and exposure when outside. Is is not as bright as the one on the M11 and has much fewer pixels. So if I use it to CHIMP that is to check my framing. Experience makes me confident of what I will get without checking, just like  film, I get that anticipation feeling until I see the results on my computer screen.
2. Auto WB is bad on the M9. An other reason why I shoot DNG. JPEGS are hard to correct for WB in post processing. If you need to use the JPEGS, you have to set the WB to the best value when shooting.
3. Because of the limited ISO range, I often shoot it at ISO 160 and under expose when I do not have enough light. Or when I want to do HDR like images. This beats shooting at the correct ISO value. My C1P v23 is much better at pulling up shadows and noise reduction than the old firmware. Sometimes I can under expose up to 4 stops, which will make it hard to see anything on the back screen even if I wanted to check. In camera I think I would only go to ISO 640, if I want to use the JPEG OOC, above that it gets noisy.
4. The limited menu is wonderful and easy to set. Startup time is minimal (instant) and it never freezes on you.
5. Because it has no LV or EVF, you have to imagine the shot in your mind, and framing wider than 28mm is impossible without OVF. I do not mind, but the RF is all you have to get focus and framing right.

What I listed above, are all limitations.

They will challenge you, but they will also free your mind to focus on the artistic side of the process. That is what makes this camera so nice for me. And of course you often get little gems of shots with it, along with probably a little more failed exposures or other issues, but the gems make up for that.

 

Thank you for the comment. 

your list of limitations are those I like about this camera. as I'm not a full time photographer but just someone who loves to shoot. it's quite challenging to learn deeply about this any time sooner. what I worry is exact what you mentions : exposure and white balance when M9 will not have a good LCD screen for checking. 

 

I have come to conclusion to buy another used M9 in. the future rather than selling my M11. 

1 information is that the freezing on the M11 is likely to be resolved with the new firmware update 2.0.2. for one day, I have not experienced any freezing yet. hopefully it can keep up forever. 

 

Thank you everyone for your advises. I'm very much appreciated. 

[sdk]

I have been a fan of X-rite (now Calibrite) camera color calibration for years. Their ColorChecker Passport target and ColorChecker Calibration software will produce a custom profile for Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom Classic, and improves color accuracy. You can even do dual illumination profiles like sunlight/shade or sunlight/tungsten. I profiled all my cameras with this system (Leica, Nikon D850, Ricoh GRIII), and then the files all wind up looking very similar in color response. I recently have upgraded to their more expensive ColorChecker Digital SG which has more color swatches (especially skin tones variants and more greens and blues too which is good for landscape color, and I mainly shoot landscapes). 

As for the M9-P, that was my first digital Leica M, and as much as I loved it when it was new, I became frustrated with using it when I got my Zeiss Distagon 35mm/1.4, due to the viewfinder blockage, and replaced it with a Leica M-P with EVF. I think the M11 eclipses both those cameras, and the Visoflex II EVF is great for my multi-image works, a huge improvement over the Olympus EVF for the M-P. I can't imagine going back toe the M9-P even if you can find one with a replaced sensor (the original M9 family Kodak sensor suffered from corrosion on the surface, and I had to have mine replaced after about 3 years). Leica no longer will do that sensor replacement repair, if I recall correctly.

[sdk]

Oh, and the M9 series has pretty mediocre color uniformity with wide angle lenses, even my Leica 24mm/3.8 Elmar ASPH was inadequately corrected by Leica's built in lens profile. On side had a magenta color shift and the other side biased magenta. I had to use Adobe Flat Field correction to fix that in Lightroom. I would shot a reference frame through a piece of translucent plexiglas (can't recall how I got that) and then the plugin in Lightroom can subtract the biased colors in the edges and corners from you photographic image files. There was no such thing as great out-of-camera color from my M9-P with wide angle lenses.  Without flat field correction the problems were obvious, especially with snow scenes. For critical work I have also used this on the M-P and M11, but 99.9% of the time it's not needed.

I never shoot JPGs on any of my cameras, just full res DNGs. So I have no idea about the JPG quality of any of the Leica M cameras I have used. Why buy a camera that's optimized for RAW imagery then use it for JPGs. You might as well just get the latest iPhone, it will do better JPGs and HIECs.