Content Credentials in Leica M11-P and future models

[Overgaard]

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What's your thoughts on the Content Credentials offered in the Leica M11-P and future camera models from Leica, Nikon, etc. 

It's a feature you can switch on or off, and when on it on one side maintain the creator rights/credentials of a photo (basically implement current copyright law which is that you own a creation from the moment you make it), on the other side gives audiences a look into any edit you or others that is made to a photo. 

In terms of news agencies, photo competitions, etc. it supposedly will guarantee that a photo is original and unaltered, and that it was taken the date stated, etc. and that it is not fabricated or fake.  

In terms of AI, it gives the ground that if someone borrows a corner of your photo, it is traced into that new creation supposedly "made by AI" (but actually made by using part of your creation). It also sort of degrades AI in that it is not an original creation - good for some, bad for others, I guess. 

Content Authenticity Initiative (CAI) was announced by Adobe in 2019 and Leica M11-P is the first camera to implement it. https://contentauthenticity.org

I think this should have been in all files since digital files were invented. At lest the owner rights. If the edits should be there, I am not so sure, is it thought police or more "show me your papers" or do I actually care if anyone altered an image?

What's your response to this. Going to use it or not? Do you like it? Do you see problems arising due to this? What benefits will you enjoy from it?

 

PS
Full disclosure. This photo of my son I took in 2002 with Leica Minilux on film, I removed an arm and extended the frame to be able to use it for ads. It's a better photo, and I made a lot of money on it for ads. Would I want you to know how much work I did on it? 

In comparison, should I be able to read an article in the newspaper, or read a book by Dan Brown, and be able to look up how the original first draft was, and what was changed in it in all streps to publication? Same for songs, movies, etc. 

What if this is my final painting that I want to show you and and not how I got there?

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[idusidusi]

I really am not sure about the 'all edits' part of this.

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[newtoleica]

This is creatives simply catching up with initiatives such as open data to ensure research integrity. 
it’s the future. With AI around to pretty much create anything you want a photograph will only have value if it can prove authenticity. 

[algrove]

In theory, very positive.

Negatives:

1.Why reveal my edits since I am author/owner and want to PP the image to my liking or style? Heck just about every RAW file has PP done. For me I can't even see my RAW's without software-Adobe or C1. 

2. Apple and Google, not supporting this approach as yet.

3. So if someone takes an iPhone photo of your image in print or on screen-then no one knows it was your original.

4. Is it a special chip in camera or is this possible to install in other M11 via FW update?

5. C1 not involved yet in this approach.

 

My 2 cents

[idusidusi]

1 minute ago, algrove said:

In theory, very positive.

Negatives:

1.Why reveal my edits since I am author/owner and want to PP the image to my liking or style? Heck just about every RAW file has PP done. For me I can't even see my RAW's without software-Adobe or C1. 

2. Apple and Google, not supporting this approach as yet.

3. So if someone takes an iPhone photo of your image in print or on screen-then no one knows it was your original.

4. Is it a special chip in camera or is this possible to install in other M11 via FW update?

5. C1 not involved yet in this approach.

 

My 2 cents

All valid points thanks for making them.

[Robert Blanko]

The question is how the camera would know the exact time. Would the new M11-P prevent that a user sets a „wrong“ time? This would require some connection via GPS or WiFi?

But apart from that, one may indeed track/document any alteration of the original data. As a private user, I don‘t need this. But might be interesting for others though.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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Canon tried something similar over a decade ago. Didn't take hold.

It really need the big three on board if it is to work in any meaningful way.

Gordon

[frame-it]

26 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Canon tried something similar over a decade ago. Didn't take hold.

 

that was for law enforcement agencies, and is still there in their cameras [and nikon and fuji], it was something embedded in the exif that simply says its an original photo or something like that, to keep in line with >> https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_1002

[Crem]

2 hours ago, Overgaard said:

What's your thoughts on the Content Credentials offered in the Leica M11-P and future camera models from Leica, Nikon, etc. 

I see little value in it as a non-professional. It's a cool feature for a subset of professionals. I think Leica didn't have a lot of new stuff for the M11-P and so this minor feature got hyped up a lot due to the lack of any other new features. If this was a feature of the original M11 it would have been a minor bullet point.

[DBounce]

IMO for most this is a meaningless update. Not something I was asking for or hoping for. It honestly makes more sense in a smartphone than a Leica. 

[frame-it]

3 minutes ago, Crem said:

I think Leica didn't have a lot of new stuff for the M11-P and so this minor feature got hyped up a lot due to the lack of any other new features.

though im sure there will be more in the future, as Leica now have a Dedicated person handling Ai and Machine Learning Tools

[dkmoore]

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

though im sure there will be more in the future, as Leica now have a Dedicated person handling Ai and Machine Learning Tools

If these two technologies are focused on unnatural image enhancement, no thank you. With the only caveat that if it makes image making truly transparent as in how we see it, colors, WB, etc. Then, I’d be on board. 
 

And to the greater point, of course future M models will be more advanced. They always are. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by dkmoore

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

The question is how the camera would know the exact time. Would the new M11-P prevent that a user sets a „wrong“ time? This would require some connection via GPS or WiFi?

But apart from that, one may indeed track/document any alteration of the original data. As a private user, I don‘t need this. But might be interesting for others though.

Work in progress, as Jesko explains.. 

 

Jeff

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

The question is how the camera would know the exact time.

internal battery, but yes if the wrong time is set, maybe there is a line in the software that accounts for sudden changes in the time?

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, dkmoore said:

If these two technologies are focused on unnatural image enhancement, no thank you.

AI and machine learning are essential for modern autofocus. They help e.g. for eye / face recognition, general autofocus, subject tracking etc. 

[Stuart Richardson]

 When it comes to accountability and veracity in images, audio and video, we were headed for disaster for years, and by now the disaster has already arrived. The ability to easily make convincing fake images, audio and video empowers the worst of us: bad actors in politics, the criminal world, terrorists, scammers, abusers, self-interested corporations and just run of the mill misanthropes to obfuscate the truth and manipulate people into doing whatever their own private desire is. While there may be some good uses that these technologies can be put to, the overall balance is that they are most likely to have their greatest influence in largely negative ways. Sowing discord and chaos and setting people against each other. While I am not sure on the specific implementation of Leica's content authenticity, I think it is a thing to be proud of that they are the first to put it into action. This is sorely needed. Hopefully a good balance can be found between privacy and the need to have some level of accountability to an image's provenance.

[lct]

16 hours ago, Overgaard said:

What's your response to this. Going to use it or not? Do you like it? Do you see problems arising due to this? What benefits will you enjoy from it?

I have no experience of it but I want to be free to modify the exif data of my own photos. Not clear if i could write, for instance, the name of the CV or ZM lens i actually used instead of that of the Leica lens i chose for 6-bit coding.

[algrove]

Another point thanks, ict.

What about those of us who have coded non-Leica lenses to a Leica 6 bit code. Exif data surely does not know this unless we tell it somehow.

 

BTW, what is your favorite software to alter exif data of your own images?

Edited October 27, 2023 by algrove

[lct]

I use File Multi Tool 7 for Mac.

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[MattMaber]

I understand the M11-P has a special chip in it to identify  the camera, but given that it seems you need software which supports CA to continue the authentication and from what I have seen in PS you can edit or remove it (or have to have it enabled) - I cant see why just an option to enable it on an existing  camera in FW shouldn't be possible.

That said, Im not sure I see the point as its editable and removeable anyway.

Can you ADD it to a file in PS? I assume so?