Leica M11 Sony Sensor - Doesn’t have the “Leica Look”

[jaapv]

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Basically this discussion is silly. A sensor is a monochrome device, so it has nothing to do with the colour rendering of the camera. That is created by the Bayer Filter and firmware algorithms. Which are both specified by Leica. So whether Sony or somebody else has made the sensor is irrelevant. The only difference could be the DR. 

[Adam Bonn]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

That is created by the Bayer Filter and firmware algorithms.

100%

I demonstrated that a few posts back with a list of cameras sharing the same chip and the P2P graphs showing how differently they all rendered 

What’s super funny (well to me anyway) is that some users be all “the M11 is just Sony colours” while others be saying “the M11 has the closest colour signature to the M9” (which for many is the digital M holy grail of colours)

So I guess  if one wants that M9 look but from a modern camera with a corrosion free sensor……

…..buy a Sony 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

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[jaapv]

47 minutes ago, Musky said:

I agree with this!

Surprisingly you agree with your own post.. 😂

[jaapv]

Just now, Musky said:

I don’t know what you’re talking about now. Sorry. 

Clearly...🙄

[jaapv]

23 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Let’s take a moment to look at a Sony sensor…

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

So here we have the IMX071 Sony sensor and in the column on the far right we can see some cameras that use this chip.

Because the chip is the same then all those cameras will produce exactly the same colours and tonality and DR and base ISO right?

 

NOPE

why?

Because in regards to the produced RAW image it matters zero f*cks where the chip is sourced from and all of the f*cks how the OEM codes it and CFAs it and cover stacks it

Of course a more modern chip can do more modern things, but when the same base chip is used in different applications then the results are also different.

 

Let's get back to the real discussion instead of light entertainment:

What causes the weird curve of the X-Pro 1 ?

[Adam Bonn]

5 minutes ago, Musky said:

Where was the M10/10R sensor designed? What company?

CMOSIS/AMS and STS (iirc)

and based on Jaapv’s comment my hunch would be that towerjazz had a part too

11 minutes ago, Musky said:

The shoddy finishing

I appreciate you have the BP 10R, but the finishing on the anodised M10 is very poor IME (and I have two) by many accounts the M11 is a lot tougher 

15 minutes ago, Musky said:

IMO

No. Geographical manufacture locations are not opinions 

16 minutes ago, Musky said:

YMMV

Well yes, because the Leica factory in Portugal is a few dozen kilometres up the road from where I live. It will be further for folks living further away

 

43 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Sony has been supplying sensors to Leica

Yup shoddy ol’ Japanese quality - you know the old saying never buy a Japanese car or Grand Seiko wristwatch, terrible quality and reliability 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 

[Adam Bonn]

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6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

What causes the weird curve of the X-Pro 1 ?

Honestly I have no clue. Playing a hunch I’d say baked in lossy RAW compression. Maybe something as simple as it being their first go with that chip and they made a better job of it with later cameras

(iirc it was) Thom Hogan (who) once pointed out that Nikon bought a chip from Sony, then made it perform better than it did in the A7x application by virtue of fact that Nikon had much more experience with digital image creation 

[Cobram]

@TheEyesHaveIt Part of Cobalt profiles emulation pack is also M10R "look" or profile. Leica M emulation pack (cobalt-image.com)

I tried Ricoh GR emulation pack and must say it works really well for indoor photos taken with my M10. There was no logical reason why I purchased Ricoh GR pack, maybe I was attracted by BW look of Ricoh photos... anyway Ricoh Positive Film works very well with M10.

I'm wondering if M10R profile can add some magic to M10 colors (already quite good)? Which Cobalt profiles you use? Can you share with us your opinion?

@Adam BonnGrand Seiko is "Grand". Maybe is just me, but Japan watches are great. Even a very low prices Casio watch is well executed and can last forever. Not to mention automatic marvelous of Grand Seiko or Citizen premium lines.

Thank you again for your contribution within LUF. Apart from interesting and nice photos you post regulary I admire your knowledge of color science and your willines to share your hard earned skills with us. Thank you Adam!

 

[Adam Bonn]

6 minutes ago, Cobram said:

@Adam BonnGrand Seiko is "Grand". Maybe is just me, but Japan watches are great. Even a very low prices Casio watch is well executed and can last forever. Not to mention automatic marvelous of Grand Seiko or Citizen premium lines.

Thank you again for your contribution within LUF. Apart from interesting and nice photos you post regulary I admire your knowledge of color science and your willines to share your hard earned skills with us. Thank you Adam!

Thank you very much Aleš

I made the GS reference as a point about Japanese quality being really good.

I treated myself to a holiday watch this year… a Citizen automatic diver… consistently runs at about +2secs a day, sapphire crystal,  all the hands and markers line up and it didn’t miss a beat going in and out of the pool all summer and it cost just under €200. I have other Swiss watches that can match that… except the price

The colour science stuff.. I’d suggest anyone who’s interested to read the profile making theory section on Lumariver’s website. It’s not an interesting subject, but it sets out how un-whitebalanced RAW data is turned into colours.

As an analogy (yes I like them don’t I?) 

I think that with the proper tools and instructions one could probably swap out a camshaft from an engine without really knowing what a camshaft is and what it does. (Which is like loading a colorchecker image into x-rite and pressing the button marked ‘make profile’)

But if you want to tune an engine by re-profiling the shape of the camshaft, then one would need to know exactly what it does, why it’s the shape it is and what the effect of changing the shape is against what you’re trying to achieve.

But with colour profiling your hands don’t get dirty and when it goes wrong you can just delete and start over 😅

[robsonj]

13 minutes ago, lct said:

Do you think your fingers touch elephant leather on your M10 .

Don’t feed the trolls 

[TheEyesHaveIt]

5 hours ago, Cobram said:

@TheEyesHaveIt Part of Cobalt profiles emulation pack is also M10R "look" or profile. Leica M emulation pack (cobalt-image.com)

I tried Ricoh GR emulation pack and must say it works really well for indoor photos taken with my M10. There was no logical reason why I purchased Ricoh GR pack, maybe I was attracted by BW look of Ricoh photos... anyway Ricoh Positive Film works very well with M10.

I'm wondering if M10R profile can add some magic to M10 colors (already quite good)? Which Cobalt profiles you use? Can you share with us your opinion?

I went on a bit of a spree during their winter sale, so I have all the film packs, the M10R+M9 profiles, the Leica Monochrome profile. To me, they're just great for quick "color grades". I go through them and choose the one that I like for the specific image I'm working on. It's faster than doing the color grading myself - though you could just do that! These are digital files after all (which makes this thread somewhat amusing). I still much prefer the SOOC shots from my M11 and Q2 compared to any other camera I've had. I found it they require the least processing to get them to look the way I want. The Cobalt profiles are just a little sprinkle on top.

[andybarton]

He’s been dealt with. And again this evening. He’s persistent 🙄

[andybarton]

If anyone spots any similar behaviour, please use the report button and we Mods will investigate. 

Thanks. 

[Adam Bonn]

Just now, andybarton said:

If anyone spots any similar behaviour, please use the report button and us Mods will investigate. 

Thanks. 

May I ask if this was a previously banned user who made a comeback?

[Adam Bonn]

2 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I went on a bit of a spree during their winter sale, so I have all the film packs, the M10R+M9 profiles, the Leica Monochrome profile. To me, they're just great for quick "color grades". I go through them and choose the one that I like for the specific image I'm working on. It's faster than doing the color grading myself - though you could just do that! These are digital files after all (which makes this thread somewhat amusing). I still much prefer the SOOC shots from my M11 and Q2 compared to any other camera I've had. I found it they require the least processing to get them to look the way I want. The Cobalt profiles are just a little sprinkle on top.

I bought their M10 + CCD pack out of curiosity.

Their basic pack seemed like a reasonable starting point for those who enjoy editing photos (kinda 'adobe standard +' I guess)

The CCD was quite fun, I mean it certainly added a punch to the images.

I also have an M9 and I do have to say that if I took the same shot of the same thing with the M10 and M9 then their "M9 DNG" profile didn't really look much like the corresponding image with the real M9.. (Maybe it would have done if I owned the M9 Cobalt basic pack too and tried with that?)

Cobalt seem to be crowd pleasers.. but IMHO like all presets and profiles made by someone else (and indeed ones you make yourself) they'll be hit and miss and not suitable for everything.

[andybarton]

10 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

May I ask if this was a previously banned user who made a comeback?

You can ask 😉

 

[TheEyesHaveIt]

19 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I bought their M10 + CCD pack out of curiosity.

Their basic pack seemed like a reasonable starting point for those who enjoy editing photos (kinda 'adobe standard +' I guess)

The CCD was quite fun, I mean it certainly added a punch to the images.

I also have an M9 and I do have to say that if I took the same shot of the same thing with the M10 and M9 then their "M9 DNG" profile didn't really look much like the corresponding image with the real M9.. (Maybe it would have done if I owned the M9 Cobalt basic pack too and tried with that?)

Cobalt seem to be crowd pleasers.. but IMHO like all presets and profiles made by someone else (and indeed ones you make yourself) they'll be hit and miss and not suitable for everything.

Their system requires you to use the foundation profile for your particular camera and then they can stack the M9 profile on top of that. Not sure how you tested their M9 DNG profile? Overall, I've found the M10R and M9 colors to be pretty subtly different than the M11 output for my images (but I'm also not shooting an X-Rite Color Checker).

Edited January 3, 2023 by TheEyesHaveIt

[Adam Bonn]

1 minute ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Their system requires you to use the foundation profile for your particular camera and then they can stack the M9 profile on top of that. Not sure how you tested their M9 DNG profile? Overall, I've found the M10R and M9 colors to be pretty subtly different than the M11 output for my images (but I'm also not shooting an X-Rite Color Checker).

I didn't try their M9/M10R product as it didn't exist back then. I bought the base profiles for the M10 and their 'CCD Fever Pack' (or whatever it's called)

One of these CCD fever profiles is called 'M9 DNG' - but it doesn't look a whole lot like my real M9 files!

I wondered if I needed to also get the M9 base pack to compare (eg M9 + cobalt base pack Vs M10 cobalt base pack AND cobalt CCD fever) but I didn't care that much, I just ended up making my own profiles using colour data recorded by my actual camera

Their base packs are DCP files just like adobe uses and like adobe they're very well featured (CMs/FMs/HSDs/PLUT) the film/look packs are bespoke RGB colour tables and use the xmp format, but it's the same file for every camera

The xmp file needs to piggy back from a dcp file (well it does in Cobalt's and adobe's implementation) so each xmp file has a line of code that calls up the necessary dcp file.

Adobe uses exactly (they probably invented it tbh) the same thing with their profiles. The LR/ACR default of 'Adobe Color' is a generic xmp file that piggy backs from the camera specific dcp file.

1. camera model specific dcp that maps un-whitebalanced RAW into the XYZ_D50 colour space.

2. This chromatic adaption is then the foundation for the xmp file that contains the creative colours and tones and what not.

The advantage being that once several different cameras are mapped to the same colour space, then one xmp can be used again and again across different camera platforms

(personally I consider it an inelegant solution but it makes great commercial sense)

[jaapv]

Because all of the troll's posts have been removed, the thread had become quite disjointed. I removed a number of other posts to put it together again - more or less . 

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[Adam Bonn]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Because all of the troll's posts have been removed, the thread had become quite disjointed. I removed a number of other posts to put it together again - more or less . 

Thanks to you and all the mods for all of the work. I bet that's exactly how you wanted to spend your evening.... 😏