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Leica M11 Sony Sensor - Doesn’t have the “Leica Look”


KeyofG

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This is the craziest, most pointless thread I’ve ever read.

Person opens thread questioning look of camera’s SOC images.

People just purchased a new camera, most are looking for justification for their purchase.

senseless debate….

Don't bother wasting your time going back to read this thread. 

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Oh my, I went over and looked at the sample images thread…. There’s nothing special or different from any other high res camera. And I know I’m gonna get the hate but yes…. Some of them actually have that Japanese~American look….. good god!

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54 minutes ago, Jim B said:

There’s nothing special or different from any other high res camera. And I know I’m gonna get the hate but yes…. Some of them actually have that Japanese~American look…

Depends on peaches i guess :D.

15 hours ago, Jim B said:

have you seen the skin tones? That’s an interesting shade of peach….

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  • 2 months later...

A store by the beach posted this today..;)

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  • 2 months later...

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On 5/13/2022 at 10:36 PM, hdmesa said:

I work with the DNGs 95% of the time, but getting JPEGs that have such abrupt tonal transitions is irritating.

For subject with complex backgrounds, the M11 B&W JPEGs can be fine, but when there is one tonal transition over another (lens vignetting over a blue sky gradient for example), they don't look right. M11 color JPEGs don't have this issue.

Comparing DNG converted to JPEG in C1 vs SOOC JPEG (ignore the crap content, I was just testing)

 

JPEG made from the DNG – sky tonal transitions look correct:

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SOOC JPEG – WTF is up with the abrupt transition in the sky that arches across the frame? It looks like I'm looking at the scene through a peephole, lol:

This looks like Holga-look, Leica look gone wrong :D

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About 6 weeks ago, I`ve tested the M11 for two days and compared it to my M10-R. The M11 is a great camera but unfortunately still with downsides, which are discussed in various threads in this forum. In my case, the wakeup time bothered me a lot compared to my M10-R (I missed a few photos) and 3 or 4 images were blown, almost white, taken immediately after turning on the camera. Ten days ago, I tried another M11, it didn't execute several images, which I wanted to take. These are the reasons, why I still didn't decide to buy this camera. 

My Leica dealer was speechless and said, that he has already sold more than 100 M11s and did not have a single return. So I thought things over and came to the conclusion, that the M11 might be more sensitive concerning different memory cards. Now I'm going to use only the internal memory next time.

What I loved very much most of all, were the colors. They come OOC so natural, that any PP is unnecessary in most cases (I always have lens detection deactivated both in Lightroom and in Capture One). Also the AWB is excellent. Skin tones are great and especially the red tones are brighter than from any other digital M. The lower ISO, the electronic shutter and the internal memory are also great to have.

Concerning the Leica look, there is no such thing from any Leica sensor, as much as I'm aware. When it comes to Leica lenses, then I would say, that there is a Leica look from some of them, mostly when shot more or less wide open, mostly with the faster lenses. Then it's the bokeh, sometimes the glow, which brings magic into an image and which is what I would regard as the Leica look, nothing else.

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52 minutes ago, Wonzo said:

In my case, the wakeup time bothered me a lot compared to my M10-R (I missed a few photos)

interesting, I had that with the M10-R and it was talk about it in this forum.

But now the M11 is so good in battery that I almost never turn it off, just the screen goes to sleep.

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On 5/12/2022 at 3:43 PM, KeyofG said:

This photo here is the M240 (as an example) 

This one is the M10

M10R

Aaannnddd M11


 

Hey don’t shoot the messenger. I’m just saying. Sony sure does make some pretty sharp results though. I think I can count the leaves on the tree back there
😅

These M10 (and M240) results match my own. Last weekend I pointed the 10R into a pond and took a crappy photo, but the B&W jpeg looks like that. Buttery smooth. Unlike the M11 results. 

it’s night and day in post process between this photos. You can make m11 look like the rest… the rest don’t have enough dr to even make something like this, except m10r. HDR edit of black and white is on the photo of m11. I don’t like it as well, but some people do. 

 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb elmars:

Yes wonzo, You can let the camera on for nearly a whole day of shooting. And: In my opinion there is not remarkable difference in wake up time to the M10-R. Both are bad in the same way. 

… in case, the live view is activated on the M10-R, otherwise it is faster . Isn`t it so ?

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb Wonzo:

… in case, the live view is activated on the M10-R, otherwise it is faster . Isn`t it so ?

Measuring this is difficult. But even with LV off I see/feel no significant difference. Under 1/2 sec, if at all.

This does not change the fact that the wakeup time is far too long overall. Even at the time of the M240, I told the Leica people that the wake-up time should be shorter. They promised to work on it, but nothing has been done.

Edited by elmars
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I have both m9 and m11.

I do a lot of street photography. And although I am not a professional photographer, my photos have many prizes and awards at the largest photo contests. What I'm saying is that, indeed, the color of the m9 sensor is special - contrasting, enhanced colors similar to Kodak film. The M11 is Leica's first camera on a Sony sensor that comes close to the color of the M9. I'm talking about the camera shot. Without Photoshop. If you slightly correct the colors, it is very difficult to determine which camera was photographing - a Kodak or a Sony sensor. To be honest, I would not change m9 to m11, but on m9 my sensor cracked - no rust for 11 years on the sensor, but the glass cracked by 2-3mm.

I've been using the m11 for one month, it has a lot of beauty in it, but I still miss the simplicity of the m9 and its colors, although it's more of a habit.

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The M11 has a backside illuminated sensor which is completely different tech and has new processing along with a lot more resolution so It'd be odd if the M11 images didn't look different.

If you look at the M10, M10r and M11 image threads here it's night and day. Not better or worse but different. 

The previous Ms all had similar sensor tech and processing iterations so they are likely to be more similar to each other in look than the M11.

I think that's what the OP is getting at, but calling it a lost Leica look. It's really just a different look. 

After all people said film Ms had a Leica's look which changed of course with digital. Whatever this highly subjective look is, obviously it can change. Whether you like it or not is another matter. But changed it certainly has.

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I love the Leica M11 DNG files. Leica digital cameras have not had a consistent look from M9, to M-P typ 240, to M11, for files that were unprocessed/straight out of camera. I'd contend that there never has been a "Leica Look" shared by the different sensors and software defaults of each generation. To claim there was once a "Leica Look," and is not now, that's just mystical, magical thinking. Counterfactual. The M9 had some IR pollution, and very saturated color, The M series has more realistic color, and less saturation by default, still some IR sensitivity, but that never was an issue with my photography due to subject matter that did not include artificial fabrics and other things that radiated the right frequencies. The M11 is pretty realistic by default, though different in contrast from my M-P, with the least IR pollution of any of their bodies I have had. But you can definitely adjust DNG files to look similar for any camera, especially if you adopt an ICC calibrated workflow.

I calibrate all my cameras with Xrite (now Calibrite) Color Checker Passport and their Lightroom plugin, so that I have profiles for each. I do dual illuminant profiles (sun and shade, or sometimes sun and tungsten). For the M11 I have profiles for different lens families (Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander). Once profiled it is very easy to get natural looking color from ANY camera (M-P typ 240, M11, Nikon D850, Ricoh GRIII, old files from my M9 and D800E). Processed DNGs may not be perfectly matched, but they are so close as to not ever matter to me. I also have an Eizo monitor with a built in spectrophotometer, and my HP Z9+ printer also has a spec with ICC calibration built in. I can also calibrate my old Epson P600 with my old Colomunki Photo with Calibrite software and make an acceptable paper profile. If you use an ICC workflow this gets you to reproducible color with any camera.

There are less expensive ways to get close to this kind of calibration, and you can certainly use your eyes to tweak photos to the color rendering of a camera. You do not have to put up with the first state you see when you open a file in a RAW developer. Don't blame the M11 when you just need to get used to the new camera's output.

Edited by sdk
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Maybe it's the case that the images from all modern digital cameras are now so malleable, they can be bent in vastly different directions without the file breaking up. Hence everyone's images cover the gamut from the HDR look to the blown highlights look. I encountered this even on my ancient mk1 M Monochrom. I could dodge and burn to the point where the picture looked unrealistic. 

Look at the Leica Mastershots page. If you take just the M11 category, there are images from that camera that range from sublime to heavily overworked. There's huge variability, simply because it's possible. The skill of the photographer's post processing skills is a big deciding factor. 

Go onto the Mastershots analogue page. There's a restfulness about most of those images. They generally don't tend towards harshness. I've been shooting a lot of film over the past few years. Mostly Portra 400. I've really enjoyed being able to scan the negatives, and the resulting image needing next to no post processing. 

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Will likely be chided for this, but I'm trying to prove a point. I was on a ferry off the west coast of Scotland last month. I had my Leica M4 and 35mm Summaron 2.8 loaded with Portra 400. I also had my Ricoh GR3 with me. 

On the trip back, there was some strong morning light against a darkening sky. I took a very similar shot on both cameras. The Ricoh GR3 shot is the top image. It's dramatic, and detailed. On the original file, I can read every word of the warning notice.

The lower shot is from the M4. It's not as detailed, but I prefer it. It's hard for me to say why. 

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