Jono Slack Review: Leica Q2 Monochrom

[scroy]

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I'm still wondering about fully committing to a Monochrom camera, but I'm taking the plunge - ordered by Q2M, should be here on Tuesday.

[augustwest100]

On 11/21/2020 at 7:13 AM, markforce said:

Same here as to native 50 that would crop to 75 and 90. Then again, I much prefer 28 over 35 so that answers that for me. I sold off all my M gear and moved into SL2 with the Sigma WA zoom and 50mm APO Cron. The 'case' I start to make, to rationalize it all, is to swap the 50mm Cron with the 90Cron (which I had intended to add anyways), and add the Q2M as a vehicle to cover 28-75 (ish), but probably more importantly, to add the flexibility (and satisfy that GAS, a bit, as well, I will admit).

I would negotiate a settlement of this post and favor the creation of a Q35 (35 cropping to 50 or 85) 

I also had a reaction when I first used the original Q and felt put off by the EVF. Either they have much improved the EVF or I have finally started to get used to staring at a teeny television as my window into the world. At any rate, I would recommend people to check out the Q2 if their only issue was previous EVF experiences. I come from the SLR film days, so I don't love it, but with time, the EVF experience has gone from terrible to pretty good IMO. Not the same as a rangefinder or an SLR, but still good. And the Q2 feels really good in the hands. I know I said that already but it bears repeating so I did!

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[CCM22]

(Hi, I’m new here! 👋)

I’m considering the q2/q2m and this was a great review! However,I’m a bit confused on the equivalent aperture with regards to dof of the 50mm crop and I’m hoping someone could help me out!

To find this camera I more or less need to sell everything else, so I need to know if I can take a half body portrait from 1-2m and  still get some blurred backgrounds! Que aperture equivalences of the 50mm crop mode! 
 

This review, as well as other places around the internet, say the equivalent aperture is around 2.8-3.0. Using various dof calculators I can’t replicate that. I get that the equivalent aperture (in terms of dof) is 5.6 for a 50mm lens.

How I think (pictures of the dof calculations from the PhotoPills app attached)

1. I take a portrait at someone across the table, let’s say 1m distance, with the q2 at 1.7

 Dof is 13cm (then I crop in post or “pre-crop” using the crop mode to a 50mm view, but that obviously won’t change the picture)

2. Pretending I use a full frame camera and a 50mm lens at aperture 2.8 (as suggested by the initial post/review) at 1m distance I get a dof of 6cm. Way smaller dof!

3. I need to change the aperture to 5.6 in the calculator in order to match the dof of the q2 at 1m.

Everyone else on the internet seems to agree on the 2.8-3 so I’m probably misunderstanding something? Anyone who can help me out?

 

 

 

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Edited March 11, 2021 by CCM22
Clarifications

[Leica Guy]

Welcome.
Shoot the portrait wide open then crop to 50 mm equivalent. The DOF will still be the same as any 28 mm lens at f1.7 on a FF camera. The field of view will be 50mm. If I’m wrong about this, someone please correct me  

The Q2 should perform very well for what you’re pursuing. 

Maybe rent one to try it before buying. I’m now 6 years of owning a Q and then Q2. I consider it a marvelous camera that is fun to use and with superb IQ. 

28mm is never thought of as an ideal focal length for portraits. Generally my view is 70-100mm is much better. More flattering to the subject. Having said that, I’ve taken plenty of people shots with a Q2 that I liked a lot afterwards. The trick is don’t get too close. The Q2 resolution allows for aggressive cropping. 

[CCM22]

Thanks! Yep, I agree with that! The depth of field is the same regardless of crop mode (it’s the same picture after all) and the field of view will be the same as an actual 50mm lens when using the 50mm crop mode. 

My question was regarding which aperture on a 50mm lens on a FF camera is equal to the dof of a 28mm lens on a FF camera (the Q/Q2). The review say that it is an aperture of 2.8, but when I use dof-calculators it seems to be 5.6.

I kept trying to see if I made any mistakes so I looked up the formula of dof. According to this article https://damienfournier.co/dof-the-simplified-formula-to-understand-dof/) the dof is related to the square of the focal length. And it is linear with the sensor size. Usually dof equivalence is discussed in relation to APC vs FF. For example: what is the aperture of a 50mm lens on FF for  dof equivalence of a 35/2 lens on APC? Focal length wise the aperture should be (50/35)^2 = 1.5^2 longer but then the sensor is 1.5x larger which reduce the required aperture with 1.5. So in total we get (1.5)^2/1.5 = 1.5. 

But now we compare a different focal length on the same sensor. So the “crop factor” becomes (50/28)^2=1.786^2=3.18

dof equivalent aperture on a 50mm lens would then be 1.7*3.18=5.41 
 

So as I see it a 50mm f/5.4 lens on a FF would give the same photo as the 50mm crop mode on Q/Q2. This seems to not be the general understanding in the reviews and forum threads I’ve read so I’m curious to get some feedback if my thinking is correct here.

(The real life usage of all this is that I have a 50mm lens on FF so i can then use that on f5.4 and see for myself how I would get by, and decide if I can replace it with a Q2. I tried it initially with f2.8 as suggested in the review and that was well enough for subject separation in most cases. That and the thought that this little camera would be equal and 50mm and better at 35mm compared to a standard 24-70 f/2.8 zoom seemed almost to good to be true I thought.. and then here we are)

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by CCM22

[Leica Guy]

4 hours ago, CCM22 said:

Thanks! Yep, I agree with that! The depth of field is the same regardless of crop mode (it’s the same picture after all) and the field of view will be the same as an actual 50mm lens when using the 50mm crop mode. 

My question was regarding which aperture on a 50mm lens on a FF camera is equal to the dof of a 28mm lens on a FF camera (the Q/Q2). The review say that it is an aperture of 2.8, but when I use dof-calculators it seems to be 5.6.

I kept trying to see if I made any mistakes so I looked up the formula of dof. According to this article https://damienfournier.co/dof-the-simplified-formula-to-understand-dof/) the dof is related to the square of the focal length. And it is linear with the sensor size. Usually dof equivalence is discussed in relation to APC vs FF. For example: what is the aperture of a 50mm lens on FF for  dof equivalence of a 35/2 lens on APC? Focal length wise the aperture should be (50/35)^2 = 1.5^2 longer but then the sensor is 1.5x larger which reduce the required aperture with 1.5. So in total we get (1.5)^2/1.5 = 1.5. 

But now we compare a different focal length on the same sensor. So the “crop factor” becomes (50/28)^2=1.786^2=3.18

dof equivalent aperture on a 50mm lens would then be 1.7*3.18=5.41 
 

So as I see it a 50mm f/5.4 lens on a FF would give the same photo as the 50mm crop mode on Q/Q2. This seems to not be the general understanding in the reviews and forum threads I’ve read so I’m curious to get some feedback if my thinking is correct here.

(The real life usage of all this is that I have a 50mm lens on FF so i can then use that on f5.4 and see for myself how I would get by, and decide if I can replace it with a Q2. I tried it initially with f2.8 as suggested in the review and that was well enough for subject separation in most cases. That and the thought that this little camera would be equal and 50mm and better at 35mm compared to a standard 24-70 f/2.8 zoom seemed almost to good to be true I thought.. and then here we are)

 

Best I can tell the equivalent DOF for a 50 mm lens would be at aperture 5+. My DOF calculator won’t stop at 1.7 aperture for the Q2. I did the calculation at subject distance of 15’. The DOF at aperture of 5.0 is 8’6”. 
 

Good luck with your decision. The simplicity of the Q2 with AF and a terrifically sharp lens / sensor combo is pretty hard to beat. 

[jonoslack]

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On 3/13/2021 at 11:06 PM, CCM22 said:

Thanks! Yep, I agree with that! The depth of field is the same regardless of crop mode (it’s the same picture after all) and the field of view will be the same as an actual 50mm lens when using the 50mm crop mode. 

My question was regarding which aperture on a 50mm lens on a FF camera is equal to the dof of a 28mm lens on a FF camera (the Q/Q2). The review say that it is an aperture of 2.8, but when I use dof-calculators it seems to be 5.6.

I kept trying to see if I made any mistakes so I looked up the formula of dof. According to this article https://damienfournier.co/dof-the-simplified-formula-to-understand-dof/) the dof is related to the square of the focal length. And it is linear with the sensor size. Usually dof equivalence is discussed in relation to APC vs FF. For example: what is the aperture of a 50mm lens on FF for  dof equivalence of a 35/2 lens on APC? Focal length wise the aperture should be (50/35)^2 = 1.5^2 longer but then the sensor is 1.5x larger which reduce the required aperture with 1.5. So in total we get (1.5)^2/1.5 = 1.5. 

But now we compare a different focal length on the same sensor. So the “crop factor” becomes (50/28)^2=1.786^2=3.18

dof equivalent aperture on a 50mm lens would then be 1.7*3.18=5.41 
 

So as I see it a 50mm f/5.4 lens on a FF would give the same photo as the 50mm crop mode on Q/Q2. This seems to not be the general understanding in the reviews and forum threads I’ve read so I’m curious to get some feedback if my thinking is correct here.

(The real life usage of all this is that I have a 50mm lens on FF so i can then use that on f5.4 and see for myself how I would get by, and decide if I can replace it with a Q2. I tried it initially with f2.8 as suggested in the review and that was well enough for subject separation in most cases. That and the thought that this little camera would be equal and 50mm and better at 35mm compared to a standard 24-70 f/2.8 zoom seemed almost to good to be true I thought.. and then here we are)

 

Hi There

All interesting stuff - I'm afraid I'm not a mathematician, and it's possible that my f2.8 estimate is not right (I'm not certain). However  - remember that with 50mm you are actually using a cropped size sensor, and I would think you need to take that into account . . . .  or mustn't you? 😱 I'm afraid this stuff makes my head hurt -

However, there is a pretty good article about equivalence at dPreview: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2666934640/what-is-equivalence-and-why-should-i-care

on this basis you can roughly assume that the Q2 on 28mm Full Frame is equivalent to 56mm on Micro 4/3 - and on this basis the equivalent F number relating to depth of field would therefore be f3.4 - which is where I got my figure of around f2.8 - a straight calculation would make it f 3.035 I think.

However, as I say, I'm not brilliant at this stuff, @adan is though, perhaps he would like to chip in!

Good point anyway - I'd be interested to know the answer. 

All the best

Jonathan

[markhout]

I can't see how cropping in-camera is any different from cropping in a photo editor...

[RoySmith]

On 4/22/2021 at 3:58 AM, markhout said:

I can't see how cropping in-camera is any different from cropping in a photo editor...

I agree. The image is cropped, but you still have the same lens projecting the same image on the sensor, producing the same depth of field.

[acapella]

 

An intriguing subject, this cropping and not easy to grasp.

Here is my summary of the topic:

Cropping means changing the angle of view of a picture, nothing more. So the DOF generated by the set up of the camera and the distance to the subject etc. will not change.

Meaning that a picture taken by a Q2 wide open will keep all of it’s characteristics of the set up (FF, 28mm, f/1.7, distance of subject) except the angle of view generated by 28mm after cropping. 

Do I make a mistake somewhere? 
 

Regards,

A Cappella

 

 

 

 

[nwphil]

On 4/26/2021 at 6:15 AM, acapella said:

 

An intriguing subject, this cropping and not easy to grasp.

Here is my summary of the topic:

Cropping means changing the angle of view of a picture, nothing more. So the DOF generated by the set up of the camera and the distance to the subject etc. will not change.

Meaning that a picture taken by a Q2 wide open will keep all of it’s characteristics of the set up (FF, 28mm, f/1.7, distance of subject) except the angle of view generated by 28mm after cropping. 

Do I make a mistake somewhere? 
 

Regards,

A Cappella

 

 

 

 

In my view and understanding, no - but I am not an expert. Does not matter if you crop in camera or in post: it's a static image and will retain the the characteristics given given by lens and sensor. if the dof in the image was 3 feet, it will remain 3 feet no matter how much you will crop the image.

Now, can you say then crop to a factor of 50mm the dof will be the same as the given by a true 50mm ? No - it's a different lens with different technicalities ;it's not like you can make a 28mm into a 50mm, or vice versa. One can emulate the the filed of view but the f2.8 dof on a 50mm will always different from the f2.8 dof given by a  28mm - ofcouse if you step back or forth, the condition are altered and it will change the dof, even if the aperture remains the same

Now, if one is talking about full sensors vs crop sensors, than it's a whole different game...

[RoySmith]

2 minutes ago, nwphil said:

“Now, if one is talking about full sensors vs crop sensors, than it's a whole different game...”

A crop sensor is no different than a full-frame sensor being cropped in camera to smaller (eg APS-C) size. If one is using the same lens on a SL or a CL  and crop the photo to the same angle of view, you’ll get the same image.

Of course with the Q/Q2/Q2M you cannot change the lens or change the sensor size. You can crop in camera (jpeg only) on in post, but all you are doing is reducing the size of the image.

Crop means the same, whether it’s on the sensor in the camera, using the Photoshop crop tool, or trimming your photograph after it’s printed.

[nwphil]

3 minutes ago, RoySmith said:

A crop sensor is no different than a full-frame sensor being cropped in camera to smaller (eg APS-C) size. If one is using the same lens on a SL or a CL  and crop the photo to the same angle of view, you’ll get the same image.

Of course with the Q/Q2/Q2M you cannot change the lens or change the sensor size. You can crop in camera (jpeg only) on in post, but all you are doing is reducing the size of the image.

Crop means the same, whether it’s on the sensor in the camera, using the Photoshop crop tool, or trimming your photograph after it’s printed.

as I said I am not an expert, but there a lot of  very different things in either sensor, more than just the size - the pixel density, the distance from sensor to lens nodal pint, and I am sure a few more. The term crop sensor is in reality wrong imo, and leads to confusion. It's not like the manufacturer actually grabbed a 24x36 mm sensor and just laser cut it or whatever to make it smaller....they are indeed created differently