SL2-S

[lx1713]

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Regarding SL2 AF, I think its reasonably good for most things save very fast moving subjects in dim light. I just did a simple catalog shoot of models for about 900 images at f3.5 full length using face detection on the 90mm. I spotted maybe 5 shots that are may be rejected for not being brilliantly sharp and if the criteria is for enlargement beyond 1.5 meters.

It's okay for most things ☺️

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[ynp]

5 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

SL2s for Sinar,

It’s a shame that Leica bought Sinar and did virtually nothing to integrate the Sinar technology into its Leica lines. They have the Sinar CaptureFlow  https://sinar.swiss/products/software/captureflow/ It is a bulletproof tethering solution and more. And Leica wants us to use the half baked tethering and unstable Fotos.  

[lx1713]

One can hope 

[lx1713]

I sent a long email to someone arguing for Sinar not to go into extinction. Although I hardly shoot products with technical cameras these days, a body designed like a back can have massive possibilities beyond what I used to do decades ago : )

Computational photography can be augmented with the right hardware design.

[lx1713]

Leica's SL is in a pretty unique position I feel

 

[ynp]

4 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

One can hope 

I am not sure that Leica

 

1 minute ago, lx1713 said:

I sent a long email to someone arguing for Sinar not to go into extinction. Although I hardly shoot products with technical cameras these days, a body designed like a back can have massive possibilities beyond what I used to do decades ago : )

Computational photography can be augmented with the right hardware design.

I am working on my old Sinar eMotion images right now. Used to have a Sinar M AF system. Miss it. 
I talked to Helga sometime ago and to a German guy who came here to Moscow for the M10-r introduction. No idea how Leica will react to our input. 
 

If Leica wants to be high end, it can with the Sinar legacy. 

[lx1713]

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I was film Sinar C2 😆. When I went digital, I abandoned my Sinar but I never forgotten what a workhorse and productive one it was.

[lx1713]

Honestly, the SL2 has been just as much a workhorse and productive for me. Occasionally I wish it was 24 mp but the files are gorgeous

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Really? Panasonic release the S5 and some people think it won't be a variant of that, if it exists? It's fun to speculate but the reality is clear. If you want to know what a lite SL2 is then demo an S5.

Leica has a commercial relationship with Panasonic. That means CDAF. If that's not what you want then you're outta luck because that's what you're going to get. There are other companies who apparently make excellent PDAF alternatives if that's what you want. There's no need to stay with Leica or Panasonic and it was pretty clear even before the SL2 what the focusing was going to be like. There's also little point bitching about it. It isn't going to change. Cut your losses and move on. The Canon looks like a really nice camera with great lenses.

I would have thought that the lack of a fully articulated screen and some internal codecs would have made it pretty clear Leica doesn't give a rats ar** about vloggers and soccer dads video expectations. t's primarily a stills camera. But....Strap on an Atmos and one of Leica's cine lense and things are a bit different. There's another level of cinema video production above eye AF and handheld gimbals out there and Leica are a player because of those cine lenses. The SL2 plays really nicely if that's the playground your sandpit is in. Really though, Leica sells primarily to M users who's eyes aren't so good anymore. We can whinge about eye tracking but I suspect Leica know their main market better than we do. Their profit would indicate they do.

Leica is possibly the most profitable (relative to company size) camera company on the planet. Sony and Canon may have the tech but commercially, their camera divisions are struggling, relatively speaking. They'll plow on because they have other divisions to help out with tech sharing etc. Sigma will be fine. They share the tech from each new lens between L and FE mount. Takes very little to change a lens mount. And perhaps Canon R might follow. Sigma will keep making new lenses for L and FE mount because no matters who wins, they do. Panasonic supply Leica and still have the GH5. Also the S1H is Netflix certified. It's a small market so when you compare to Canon/Sony they look insignificant. But look at the serious end of the video market and Panasonic is fine. Saying Panasonic has no market share in video is like saying RED or Blackmagic have no market share...

Anyone who bought an SL2 for video AF or tracking AF bought the wrong camera. Not sure how as it was pretty obvious Leica don't do tracking AF well based on their arrangements with Panasonic. So if you're a vlogger or sports shooter it's not surprising you think the SL2 focus sucks (it does for you). But if you shoot primarily in SAF and stills then the AF is freaking fantastic. EV -6, anyone? My SL2 crushes my Son'y in low light SAF. Mind you I've only got the A7R3 and not IV.

Yes the eye AF, video AF and stills tracking AF is at the bottom of the pile. Yes it's really really good for SAF. Yes any new SL will be the same. Nothing new here.

What it probably will have is custom micro lenses. If you've wanted a top end 24MP sensor that plays nice with M glass you might be in luck.

But hey! Speculate on!!

Gordon

[lx1713]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

It’s not okay for video. If leica wants to seize a decent market share, they need to accept that people buying mirrored cameras at this price point want them to be hybrid. 

Well, think of it this way, Leica probably is talking to a different market from us. The people who use their Thalia, Summilux-C, Summicron-C, M 0.8 range of lenses is likely to have a different approach to focusing from say Canon's XF705 camcorders. And substantial portion of C500 users get a XF705 to fill a gap in their C500's capabilities.

Whether it's developing towards Canon or Sony's video AF, Leica may well be thinking how its automation will replace a focus puller. If the pandemic removes an entire work class in Hollywood what replaces that skillset? The professional focusing is on a different requirements list from what we perceive.

If anything Leica cannot really tackle a broader mass market as effectively as Canon, Nikon and Sony. They rely firstly on glass formulation to stand as the first choice to a smaller market who has an image quality problem to solve.

Don't forget the Canon and Sony AF algorithms are designed for news and broadcast. It's different from cinema.

So if a client doesn't really depend on a Canon or Sony AF algorithm to deliver a cinematic look, what then?

Edited October 29, 2020 by lx1713

[lx1713]

So if their approach is to be able to dial in a focus puller's style of focusing, it's like the picture styles without photoshopping. Fine tuning in the acceleration and decelerations of the focusing timeline isn't exceptionally different from the current AF operations of the SL. You may need to rehouse the existing lenses for finer focusing motors, add zoom servos, par-focal, etc but that's money to be made by Leica.

The 24-90 is a par focal zoom. That isn't an accidental by product of the design process. Par focal zooms are horribly expensive in the cinematic world.

Edited October 29, 2020 by lx1713

[Boojay]

30 minutes ago, Steven said:

 

what is SAF? 

and can you clarify what you mean by the sl2s will have it’s own micro lenses ? 

Single autofocus

 

What makes a Leica SL/2 or CL/TL for that matter, play better with adapted Leica M glass.

Micro lenses are normally mounted on top of the light-gathering portion of pixels on the camera sensor to direct light onto the individual pixels. They can also be angled along the edges of a camera sensor in order to capture and redirect light back into the sensor's pixels reducing falloff on the edge of photographs.

 

[Slender]

Yes, finaly! Someone points out AF algorythms and performances better suited to ENG cameras, and nothing like cinematic focus pulls! Thank you! 🥰
I thought I'd won Stev'heart with my love declaration for MF in movies somewhere else, but hey :). He already has a Sony A7SIII

I definitevly believe the it will be a slightly cheaper SL2 body with 24mp cmos sensor, perhaps with an AA filter - better for videos -. Maybe with the price difference you can soak up the coast of these fancy cages from LockCircle....

A better tuning of micro lenses for M: I doubt it's a sound idea - can be conflicting towards M market share and maybe detrimental to SL lenses?

24mp in FF is such a sweet spot because it makes perfect room for 6K in FF or 4K in Super35 crop, and 6um large photosites. All with no pixel-bining/mix/interpolation.... however in practice it turns out the Leica SL2 pixel bining makes for sharper images than the sigma FP (check Eoshd website) who has a full-readout sensor.

It means less work for the Maestro III and buffer, so that may allow for 10/12bits video with more advanced H265 options. Raw is already possible certainly for the SL2, but is arguably rarely a good idea, since log and post denoise allows for 90% of adjustements in post, without coputer-crushingly-large-omg-i-need-10Tb-hard-drives-files. Sure if you dont control your lights, expose poorly and without white/dark balancing, then yeah Raw can save your bacon in post.

At this level of consideration, skip directly to a RED komodo or sony FX6... you are not looking out to the godly stills capacities of the SL2 anymore.

I would add even in the motion picture industry not every production wants/can shoot/edit raw. Even then you can throw in some 1080p 4.2.2 in a mix of 2.8K ARRIRAW and nobody notices, if your film is good
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical

 

Time to go outside... but i need to de-clutter this studio config first 😅

PS: the 24-90 is not absolutely par-focal in my experience, but zooming during a take is not my jam so I dont bother.

 

 

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[BernardC]

13 hours ago, Steven said:

If leica wants to seize a decent market share, they need to accept that (...)

Leica probably knows exactly what market share they want, and I would be surprised if their ideal share made them into a mainstream player. An important part of that strategy is not trying to be everything to everybody. There's an oft-reoccurring thread here in which people demand (demand!) that Leica release super-telephotos, the like of which only Nikon and Canon have ever been able to sell. You'll read fortellings of doom if Leica doesn't design/productise/manufacture/sell these lenses right away.

I'm sure it happens in every brand forum: "I absolutely need a feature that is offered by a different brand. My brand should drop everything and implement it right now!" There is no perfect camera.

[lx1713]

2 hours ago, Slender said:

Yes, finaly! Someone points out AF algorythms and performances better suited to ENG cameras, and nothing like cinematic focus pulls! Thank you! 🥰
I thought I'd won Stev'heart with my love declaration for MF in movies somewhere else, but hey :). He already has a Sony A7SIII

I definitevly believe the it will be a slightly cheaper SL2 body with 24mp cmos sensor, perhaps with an AA filter - better for videos -. Maybe with the price difference you can soak up the coast of these fancy cages from LockCircle....

A better tuning of micro lenses for M: I doubt it's a sound idea - can be conflicting towards M market share and maybe detrimental to SL lenses?

24mp in FF is such a sweet spot because it makes perfect room for 6K in FF or 4K in Super35 crop, and 6um large photosites. All with no pixel-bining/mix/interpolation.... however in practice it turns out the Leica SL2 pixel bining makes for sharper images than the sigma FP (check Eoshd website) who has a full-readout sensor.

It means less work for the Maestro III and buffer, so that may allow for 10/12bits video with more advanced H265 options. Raw is already possible certainly for the SL2, but is arguably rarely a good idea, since log and post denoise allows for 90% of adjustements in post, without coputer-crushingly-large-omg-i-need-10Tb-hard-drives-files. Sure if you dont control your lights, expose poorly and without white/dark balancing, then yeah Raw can save your bacon in post.

At this level of consideration, skip directly to a RED komodo or sony FX6... you are not looking out to the godly stills capacities of the SL2 anymore.

I would add even in the motion picture industry not every production wants/can shoot/edit raw. Even then you can throw in some 1080p 4.2.2 in a mix of 2.8K ARRIRAW and nobody notices, if your film is good
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical

 

Time to go outside... but i need to de-clutter this studio config first 😅

PS: the 24-90 is not absolutely par-focal in my experience, but zooming during a take is not my jam so I dont bother.

 

 

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Nice setup ☺️, I have made the same choices but went with a Sennheiser set of gear. A bit of limitations for wireless in my part of the world.

I don't zoom much during video capture, too. I have tested both my 24-90 for par focal starting at 90mm and they do nail it on the SL2 for stills but I don't shoot enough video to really say the par focal stays in focus.

Edited October 29, 2020 by lx1713

[Rick in CO]

So, over on the Leica Rumors website there is an article about the M2-S, for which the "S" stood for the addition of a self-timer lever?

Would be superfluous on an SL2, being in the software?  The meaning of the "S" on the SL2-S may be novel.

[Slender]

Nobody for "S"wivel Screen 😅

[paul.bridges.3388]

Sorry to be late to the story. Isn’t this most likely to be Leica equivalent of the LUMIX S1?

LUMIX S1R ~ Leica SL2

LUMIX S1 ~ Leica SL2-S

So, tweaked for video and stills.

for me, this is quite exciting. I already have the Q2 but crave a lower-light portrait partner for it. The SL2-S might be exactly that camera?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[caissa]

I look at it from a R camera perspective. In my eyes the SL2 reminds me of the R4. After the R4 came the more affordable R4s. Maybe the SL2-S is similar (less expensive, maybe with less resolution, or a slower top speed of only 10 FPS).

Just another guess.

Edited November 2, 2020 by caissa

[paul.bridges.3388]

22 minutes ago, caissa said:

I look at it from a R camera perspective. In my eyes the SL2 reminds me of the R4. After the R4 came the more affordable R4s. Maybe the SL2-S is similar (less expensive, maybe with less resolution, or a slower top speed of only 10 FPS).

Just another guess.

The S1 is less expensive than the S1R, I think?