Leica M10-R: Review by Jonathan Slack

[jonoslack]

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8 hours ago, elmars said:

If You regard me as independant though I was a betatester of the M10-R I can second You.

I don't know about independent - but certainly honest, and I agree too!

[Rick]

Hi Jono,

Great photos.

What lens did you use for the Asparagus photo.  Great color, light, and sense of 3-D look.  Atmospheric.  Liked it a lot!

You always do so well using light and shadows.  Your simple 2-Apples photo is sublime.  Love it.

And, of course, I love the dog photo.

Can't wait to try the 50APO and 28(verII) Summicron.  Any comments on these two?

I'm first in line again at our local camera pusher-man shop.  I'll trade my M10 in for the MR.  I never keep the old as backup as I  never use the old one.  I'm going to try and trade in some classic R lenses so, I hope I can keep the purchase off the credit card statement.  

 

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[jonoslack]

53 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Thank you Jonathan, for your nice review as always.

I use M10P right now. I work mostly with newspaper work but on my time off I'll do some landscape photography. Maybe I'm old school, and I'm also shoot analog, but think about what you do with your pictures after you put them on instagram, twitter or facebook. I don't see any progress in quality on Jonathans pictures on my screen when I look at them from my M10P. If I'd printed the pictures I'm sure there would be some difference but not now. That sade, I might buy the P- version 😊

Hi There Dick

Well, there Is a problem that posting small resolution images on the internet isn't that easy to show improvements! Although the headline on the M10r is the extra resolution, for me the real improvement is the highlight improvements. 

[Dr No]

36 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Thank you so much - I don't find it so easy to write, so it's good that you enjoyed it!

I do know this feelings. 

It doesn't show that you find writing not so easy. This was a natural, entertaining and informative read with character that answered all the things I wondered about. With some truly beautiful pictures. It is rare to have both. Thank you.

[Guest Nowhereman]

14 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

...for me the real improvement is the highlight improvements. 

That's interesting! How would you characterize the highlight improvement?
Regards, Mitch
Frog Leaping photobook

[Jeff S]

8 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

That's interesting! How would you characterize the highlight improvement?
Regards, Mitch
Frog Leaping photobook

I thought Jono covered that well in his review, notably under ‘Dynamic Range’.

Jeff
 

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

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^ In the original post Jono wrote that the highlight problem of shooting the M10 at ISO 100 has been solved in the M10-R. I understood, perhaps incorrectly, that in post #83 he was referring to something else when he said that, for him, the real improvement was in the treatment of highlights, i.e., more important, to him, than the increase in resolution. As I have no interest in the resolution increase, particularly as it may need better focussing technique than I use shooting à la sauvette, I am highly interested in improved highlight treatment, especially if highlights were to be rendered more the way film does. Hence, my question.
_________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

[Jeff S]

In the Dynamic Range section, he clearly explained the significant improvement in exposure flexibility and avoiding blown highlights.  Anything that preserves highlights is good, film or digital. 
 

Jeff

[HRJ]

Thanks Jono. It would be a great pleasure to meet up if the opportunity arises. Thanks for the serendipity!

Huw

[01af]

Am 16.7.2020 um 16:34 schrieb jonoslack:

Am 16.7.2020 um 15:58 schrieb Jeff S:

Did you need to adjust your shooting habits at all due to the higher resolution, e. g., to avoid camera shake?

No, I didn't, and I didn't find it a problem ...

Of course you didn't, Jono — because it is no problem.

We used to shoot film, then we switched to 6 MP digital, then 10 MP, 12 MP, 18 MP, 24 MP ... and camera shake never was a problem. Or to be more precise — it always was a problem, at slow shutter speeds, but the problem didn't get worse with megapixel count. So why should it become, all of sudden, an increased problem with the transition from 24 to 40 MP?

The detrimental effect of camera shake on image sharpness depends on magnification, not pixel count. The bigger you print, the better the sharpness of your exposures should be. It has nothing to do with pixel count. If you print your M10-R pictures the same size you always printed then you will get away with the same hand-held shutter speeds you always did.

[lykaman]

My concern is that the larger files will really bog down quite a few computers. In addition, the much higher IQ and definition will not be seen on some of the older monitors. So in consideration, is it necessary to consider updating computer, monitor and printer to really appreciate the M-10R. One other thought, should one consider using late Leica lenses rather than early lenses to appreciate the available IQ,...etc.    L

[John Miranda]

I think there are never regrets with capturing a higher resolution image, regardless of the initial thoughts on target output.  Ten years later, you may revisit a special image that is hard to re-capture, and want to crop it, or do something larger with it, and you'll be happy the original RAW file has higher information content.  I have 15 year old saved images captured traveling abroad to places I may never have an opportunity to revisit captured at 12MP when that was regarded as DSLR state of the art that I still examine, taken at a time when cameras were typically 4-6MP. (and having newer sensor technology, also had better dynamic range and ISO performance AND resolution).  

Often resolution and ISO are framed as an 'OR', but ISO AND resolution have only been climbing remarkably over the past 20 years.  My 6MB Nikon D100 had significant noise at ISO 400, and was really bad at 800 ISO.   Compute only gets faster, storage is practically free, and any system made in the last ~5 years has no problems with a 40MB sensor.

Edited July 18, 2020 by John Miranda

[bert c]

7 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Bert

I have to confess I didn't do a big test, but my instinct is that there isn't any difference

Well, there shouldn’t be, according to the knowledge we now share, thanks to the forum.

I was just confused by the information Leica published in their official specs: 1300mAh for the M10 | M10P and 1100 mAh for the new M10R. So I thought the new M10R was less (or smarter) power consuming. It wasn’t very smart of me not to have a first look at my own M10 batteries ... all three are 1100mAh ... 

Thank y’all for answering my question!

[Chaemono]

M10-R’s better highlight detail recovery may be the result of the higher resolution sensor. In order to compare, one needs to shoot both cameras as close to base ISO as possible which means ISO 200 on the M10 rather than ISO 100. I never had an issue with blown highlights with the M10 at ISO 200 and a bit of underexposure.

The only reason the M10 has a bad rap in this regard is because Leica initially screwed up and stated base ISO at 100. They get a chance to rectify it now with the M10-R but more for marketing reasons than an actual blown highlight problem with the M10.

Of course, good highlight treatment at ISO 100 is always to be preferred to ISO 200 when underexposing equally to protect details in them. It’s the higher resolution in highlight details and less noisy pushed shadows at base ISO which gives the M10-R a perceived ‘DR’ advantage, is my guess.

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

M10-R’s better highlight detail recovery may be the result of the higher resolution sensor. In order to compare, one needs to shoot both cameras as close to base ISO as possible which means ISO 200 on the M10 rather than ISO 100. I never had an issue with blown highlights with the M10 at ISO 200 and a bit of underexposure.

The only reason the M10 has a bad rap in this regard is because Leica initially screwed up and stated base ISO at 100. They get a chance to rectify it now with the M10-R but more for marketing reasons than an actual blown highlight problem with the M10.

Of course, good highlight treatment at ISO 100 is always to be preferred to ISO 200 when underexposing equally to protect details in them. It’s the higher resolution in highlight details and less noisy pushed shadows at base ISO which gives the M10-R a perceived ‘DR’ advantage, is my guess.

Hi There

Done that (compared the same high contrast scene between the M10 and M10r - at different ISO values. I agree that with care you can get good images with the M10, but to me the M10R handles highlights a great deal better - even when you overexpose them, and even with the M10 at 200 ISO, and with both of them at 200 ISO.

I shoot a lot of high contrast stuff, so maybe it isn't so important for everyone, but I think it's a big difference. 

All the best

Jono

[jonoslack]

18 hours ago, Rick said:

Hi Jono,

Great photos.

What lens did you use for the Asparagus photo.  Great color, light, and sense of 3-D look.  Atmospheric.  Liked it a lot!

You always do so well using light and shadows.  Your simple 2-Apples photo is sublime.  Love it.

And, of course, I love the dog photo.

Can't wait to try the 50APO and 28(verII) Summicron.  Any comments on these two?

I'm first in line again at our local camera pusher-man shop.  I'll trade my M10 in for the MR.  I never keep the old as backup as I  never use the old one.  I'm going to try and trade in some classic R lenses so, I hope I can keep the purchase off the credit card statement.  

 

Hi Rick - thank you!

I used the 75 APO Summicron for the Asparagus. 

I haven't tried the 28 verII Summicron, but I'm sure it'll be great - it's fantastic with the 50 APO  - I'm trying to find the funds myself!

All the best

Jono

[Chaemono]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

Hi There

Done that (compared the same high contrast scene between the M10 and M10r - at different ISO values. I agree that with care you can get good images with the M10, but to me the M10R handles highlights a great deal better - even when you overexpose them, and even with the M10 at 200 ISO, and with both of them at 200 ISO.

I shoot a lot of high contrast stuff, so maybe it isn't so important for everyone, but I think it's a big difference. 

All the best

Jono

You are making it really hard not to get one.

I compared the M10 to the α7R III and the Z7 in high contrast scenes at base ISO and up to ISO 640 (the Sony and the Z7 pull ahead after that, particularly the Sony, the Z7 has better base ISO than the Sony). I carefully exposed for highlights with all three cameras (same M lens) and recovered for details in highlights and shadows. I thought that the M10 held up brilliantly in that ISO range against the other two for details, actually, I thought it kicked butt (I still have have the RAW files and the links to the threads where I posted them. Got a lot of ‘thank you’ and ‘please, more’ comments 😂).

Now you are saying the M10-R is even better in this regard? I have since sold the Sony but still have the Z7 with an M adapter (never got around to selling it for some reason).

[jonoslack]

18 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

You are making it really hard not to get one.

I compared the M10 to the α7R III and the Z7 in high contrast scenes at base ISO and up to ISO 640 (the Sony and the Z7 pull ahead after that, particularly the Sony, the Z7 has better base ISO than the Sony). I carefully exposed for highlights with all three cameras (same M lens) and recovered for details in highlights and shadows. I thought that the M10 held up brilliantly in that ISO range against the other two for details, actually, I thought it kicked butt (I still have have the RAW files and the links to the threads where I posted them. Got a lot of ‘thank you’ and ‘please, more’ comments 😂).

Now you are saying the M10-R is even better in this regard? I have since sold the Sony but still have the Z7 with an M adapter (never got around to selling it for some reason).

Well, I think it is !  Mind you - don’t you have an S3? As far as I’m aware the M10-R sensor is a cut down S3 sensor . . . 

[TheGodParticle/Hari]

Yet another brilliant review, Jono! 

Always a pleasure to read your thoughts and see the lovely photos, even if they haven’t been shot at Crete this time 😀 

My greetings to Emma. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jonoslack]

14 minutes ago, TheGodParticle/Hari said:

Yet another brilliant review, Jono! 

Always a pleasure to read your thoughts and see the lovely photos, even if they haven’t been shot at Crete this time 😀 

My greetings to Emma. 

Hi There Hari

Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it - actually a few of the pictures were from Crete last September - and Emma sends her greetings right back atcha!

all the best