Leica M10-R: Review by Jonathan Slack

[Chaemono]

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I never found any comments in this regard with respect to the S3 sensor.

[John Smith]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Given that there’s no IBIS in the M, I was hoping that Leica would use a Sony sensor which have the best high ISO performance, IMO, in the next M. But not having to mess up the rest of the colors while trying to fix the skin tones is a big plus. So far, I always used the calibration panel in LR and put the red slider at +10 or +15 in order to make the reds a bit more orange. This makes for better skin tones in the M10 files and also the SL2 files, I find. One doesn’t need to do this with the S3. If that’s also the case with the M10-R, that alone may be worth the upgrade. 

That's the question I have. Does the M10-R have the same color array as the S3? I understand that you can PP color to some extent, but I'd rather not have to do anything at all with the colors.

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[jonoslack]

12 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Jono, we know that the M10-R shares the sensor architecture from the S3, but do you know if it also incorporates the S3’s new color array design, which is said to improve the red channel and skin tones?  Or is that just specific to the S3, given its more common professional studio use?  

I understand that we won’t realize the best colors from the M10-R until Adobe offers a profile, but I’m curious what Leica has used as a foundation.
 

Sorry for all the follow-up questions.  

Jeff

Hi There Jeff

I don't know the definitive answer to this, but I'm almost certain they are the same.

All the best

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

So far, I always used the calibration panel in LR and put the red slider at +10 or +15 in order to make the reds a bit more orange. This makes for better skin tones in the M10 files and also the SL2 files, I find. One doesn’t need to do this with the S3. If that’s also the case with the M10-R, that alone may be worth the upgrade. 

Ah yes - especially with older skin tones - I have to say I haven't been doing this with the M10-R, but then I haven't been taking pictures of my mates as much in the last 6 months (the ones with the red faces!). 

[Chaemono]

Skin tones look very restrained in the portraits of the reviewer’s friends at the end of the video. They almost look too pale. This should get fixed with firmware, IMO. Anyway, it’s not too difficult a starting point, I guess. 

 

[StS]

On 7/16/2020 at 4:58 PM, jonoslack said:

Hi there Tom

All I can say to you is "don't try one". I thought exactly that myself, until I put the first card into my computer when I thought F*%k YES! It isn't just the resolution!

Thanks for the warning .

Excellent review, as always. I find it remarkable that there is still significant development in sensor technology. Concerning the highlights - when I bought my first digital camera, my first reaction was "hey, this is like slide film". Remarkably, it still is...

Stefan

[M11 for me]

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vor 59 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:

Skin tones look very restrained in the portraits of the reviewer’s friends at the end of the video. They almost look too pale. This should get fixed with firmware, IMO. Anyway, it’s not too difficult a starting point, I guess. 

 

My god. What a boring video.

[XRayGuy]

Hi Jono,

I just wanted to thank you for not only writing your M10-R review but also for taking the time to answer so many questions on this forum.  I really enjoy your writing, combined with your wonderfully composed photographs.  I for one would be very happy to read more content from you, should you be compelled to write more.  All the best.

Iain

[brandnew2]

17 hours ago, elmars said:

The Adobe profiles are out already with the last update. But Adobe did not communicate this for obvious reasons. 

This might be a stupid question, but I've heard it said here and elsewhere that image quality in lightroom should increase noticeably when Adobe rolls out the camera profile for a new camera, and to therefore take initial reviews (both from pre-release reviewers and early recipients of the production models) with a grain of salt. Is this referring to the release of an actual camera matching profile (as opposed to say, Adobe Color) or does it just mean support in Adobe Camera Raw? If the former, does that mean I wouldn't be getting the benefit of the camera profile optimizations if I continued to use Adobe Color instead of the camera's own profile when editing my M10-R DNGs? 

David Farkas said as recently as the livestream they did last night that we were still waiting on Adobe to release the official profile for the M10-R. However, as you point out, Adobe recently updated their website to indicate that M10-R support in ACR was actually added in the 12.3 update issued in June, indicating that it's been there for some time but just not publicly acknowledged until the M10-R was announced. Does that mean people who are lucky enough to get their M10-R's next week will be able to benefit from the M10-R's ACR/lightroom profile right off the bat? I'll note that the website indicates that there's no camera matching profile for the M10-R, but then again, there seem to be none for any of the M10s, so I'm still a bit confused by what people are referring to when they refer to Adobe releasing a "profile" for a camera. Apologies if this is a dumb question! 

Adobe website for reference: https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html

[elmars]

The Adobe profiles are mainly for color and contrast curve. This could be implemented in a camera profile, but these profile are simpler not as exact. Many facturers have a variety of different camera profiles implemented, but not Leica. Leica has only one. Before there is an Adobe profile, LR has to use the camera profile. 

[01af]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb brandnew2:

David Farkas said as recently as the livestream they did last night that we were still waiting on Adobe to release the official profile for the M10-R.

Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom already support the M10-R, and there's nothing left to wait for.

.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb brandnew2:

I'll note that the website indicates that there's no camera-matching profile for the M10-R ...

The regular profiles are those named "Adobe Color", "Adobe Standard", "Adobe Neutral", "Adobe Monochrome" etc. They are available for any camera supported by Adobe Camera Raw/Lightroom. They have always the same names for all cameras but are individual profiles, matching the respective camera model's particular colour rendition.

The camera-matching profiles have names like "Camera Natural", "Camera Vivid", "Camera Muted", "Camera Landscape", "Camera Portrait", etc. They emulate the profile options the cameras offer in their menues. Their actual names may vary between cameras, according to the profiles' names in the camera menu, but will always start with "Camera". These profiles are not available for all cameras—only for those which offer a bunch of profiles to choose from in the first place (but possibly not all of them).

[wlaidlaw]

Capture One who tend to be a bit behind the curve on camera profiles updated at the end of last week but on their list of supported cameras, although the M10 and M10-M are there, I was not surprised to find the M10-R missing. They also do not support the S series cameras, presumably because these are competitors for their modular MF cameras, which IMHO, is a bit petty and not very customer orientated. I think that they are usually dependent upon being loaned a camera to make their ICC profiles. Unlike LR, where making a DCP profile is very easy, making an ICC profile is far more complicated and requires expensive software. I have tried a couple of proprietary bits of open software to convert DCP profiles to ICC but the results were very poor. At least there is now a Leica dealer in Denmark, to lend them an M10-R. My brain is Capture One shaped not LR, so for the time being, I will just use ACR as and when my M10-R arrives, which I hope will be before Phase One update their profiles. 

Wilson

[jonoslack]

11 hours ago, XRayGuy said:

Hi Jono,

I just wanted to thank you for not only writing your M10-R review but also for taking the time to answer so many questions on this forum.  I really enjoy your writing, combined with your wonderfully composed photographs.  I for one would be very happy to read more content from you, should you be compelled to write more.  All the best.

Iain

Hi there Iain - thank you! that's very much appreciated, as for writing more content - I'd love to, but time is a real constraint!

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Capture One who tend to be a bit behind the curve on camera profiles updated at the end of last week but on their list of supported cameras, although the M10 and M10-M are there, I was not surprised to find the M10-R missing. They also do not support the S series cameras, presumably because these are competitors for their modular MF cameras, which IMHO, is a bit petty and not very customer orientated. I think that they are usually dependent upon being loaned a camera to make their ICC profiles. Unlike LR, where making a DCP profile is very easy, making an ICC profile is far more complicated and requires expensive software. I have tried a couple of proprietary bits of open software to convert DCP profiles to ICC but the results were very poor. At least there is now a Leica dealer in Denmark, to lend them an M10-R. My brain is Capture One shaped not LR, so for the time being, I will just use ACR as and when my M10-R arrives, which I hope will be before Phase One update their profiles. 

Wilson

Wilson, I've been processing some M10-R DNG files that I could get my hands on with no obvious problems.  You are probably pickier than I but you should just try it.  I'm using the DNG neutral profiles and my usual controls.  The same goes for S3 files.  In the past Capture One would pretend that S files didn't exist, but now they see them, do a rather good job with them (some discussion of the S forum supported this) again using the DNG neutral profile. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[scott kirkpatrick]

I'm back in the queue for my own 10R, but Jono shot a few quick Cornwall garden shots so that I could see what Capture One does with them.  I just pressed "develop" for each and the results were fine, ,but the light was a little flat, so I gave each a few seconds of fine-tuning:

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L1000881 1 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

L1000892 1 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

No problems seen, and very nice colors with little effort.

[Tailwagger]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:00 PM, jonoslack said:

Hrumph - how do you do that kind of comparison, and if you do, how do you evaluate the results? I think they're fairly different, and I think that the SL2 makes a good companion to an M10. 

Completely understand where you are coming from and they certainly are complimentary cameras both in purpose as well as L&F. That said, there is one aspect that I think is worthy of exploration; the use of M glass native vs. adapted.  I should receive my camera today or tomorrow after which I expect to d a little testing. Now that the sensors are more evenly matched in terms of resolution, it will be interesting to see how some of the lenses stack up against each other. 

[brandnew2]

4 hours ago, 01af said:

Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom already support the M10-R, and there's nothing left to wait for.

.

The regular profiles are those named "Adobe Color", "Adobe Standard", "Adobe Neutral", "Adobe Monochrome" etc. They are available for any camera supported by Adobe Camera Raw/Lightroom. They have always the same names for all cameras but are individual profiles, matching the respective camera model's particular colour rendition.

The camera-matching profiles have names like "Camera Natural", "Camera Vivid", "Camera Muted", "Camera Landscape", "Camera Portrait", etc. They emulate the profile options the cameras offer in their menues. Their actual names may vary between cameras, according to the profiles' names in the camera menu, but will always start with "Camera". These profiles are not available for all cameras—only for those which offer a bunch of profiles to choose from in the first place (but possibly not all of them).

Ah, very clear, thank you for this explanation!

[wlaidlaw]

2 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'm back in the queue for my own 10R, but Jono shot a few quick Cornwall garden shots so that I could see what Capture One does with them.  I just pressed "develop" for each and the results were fine, ,but the light was a little flat, so I gave each a few seconds of fine-tuning:

 by scott kirkpatrick, No problems seen, and very nice colors with little effort.

Thanks Scott and good news about C1 working as well as it seems to.

Since I am at #1 on the Q at my Leica dealer, I am a tad deflated not to have received my invoice today but I don't know how many Leica had in stock at release. For the SL, this dealer got 2 on release day and sent me one of those. If they have only received one, I would understand that they would want to keep this for a demo camera. In 1967, my father persuaded our local dealer in Aberdeen (J Lizars) to part with their demo M4, which they had only received that day and I still have it. It is a very low serial number at 1175047, with production starting at 1175001 or 000, depending on which book you read. I had a very nice matching M240 with the 048 production number by pure coincidence but sadly, that had to be replaced, thereby losing the number, when Leica terminally damaged the camera, when tightening the strap lugs. 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

I am reflated. Invoice from the ever reliable Ffordes arrived this evening and M10-R should be on its way to me in France tomorrow, after Ffordes have installed the new firmware. 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Porrsha]

Is there any technical issue with using the occasional R type lens with the R to M adaptor (M-240 sequence).