M10 Monochrom

[a.noctilux]

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Talking about Thambar ...

LTM Thambar can be very expensive (maybe not sold because of that):

like here, Paris Leica Stores, here 90mm lenses second hand , two Thambar at 4 290€ and 4 690€

 

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Talking about Thambar ...

LTM Thambar can be very expensive (maybe not sold because of that):

like here, Paris Leica Stores, here 90mm lenses second hand , two Thambar at 4 290€ and 4 690€

 

That’s another story btw

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Herr Barnack]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:46 AM, jdlaing said:

I think he’s either headed for or in jail for insurance fraud. But the sensor is clean.

Or maybe he is hoping to cash out his Veyron via an insurance settlement so he can get an M10 Monochrome...

 

[Fedro]

9 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Or maybe he is hoping to cash out his Veyron via an insurance settlement so he can get an M10 Monochrome...

 

maybe, maybe: we dont know yet how much the M10M will cost

[mike3996]

On 1/8/2020 at 4:11 PM, Ko.Fe. said:

 

Not all of us are using f0.9 lenses wide open.  And not all of us are using 1/4 shutter speed all the time.

Cameras like Monochrom are known to be in use for street photography.  Where f8 and 1/1000 is common with 28mm lens. Just as it was in film M only time.

It means all is in focus and no tripod needed. Pixels count is irrelevant for it.

Your reply reasserts what Nitranus said.  Was it meant so? 🤔

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by mike3996

[Herr Barnack]

6 hours ago, Fedro said:

maybe, maybe: we dont know yet how much the M10M will cost

One Kidney USD.

[Jeff S]

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18 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

One Kidney USD.

Plus tariff.

Jeff

[Fedro]

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

One Kidney USD.

 

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Plus tariff.

Jeff

an arm and a leg GBP too  not long to go before we find out

[Herr Barnack]

5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Plus tariff.

Jeff

Make that One Kidney and One Pancreas USD.

[Ko.Fe.]

14 hours ago, mike3996 said:

Your reply reasserts what Nitranus said.  Was it meant so? 🤔

 

Ni who? Meant what?

Leica M camera been street photog camera. 

It is going to have more ISO as well, not just mega pixels.

[setuporg]

On 1/8/2020 at 4:59 PM, Printmaker said:

Still, after several black Leicas maybe it is time for a chrome M. It would make reaching into the bag and grabbing the right camera easier.

Certainly helps Santa!

[fotografr]

On 1/8/2020 at 4:30 PM, jaapv said:

Not quite the Bugatti I meant I was thinking of the Veyron

Only two seats, so drive the kid to school, not kids. 🤔

[budjames]

How about an SL2 Monochrome? (Don’t hate me, please.)

I read an article years ago that with a monochrome M, you lose the ability add filter effects in post processing like you can with color DNG files. Instead, you have to use filters on the camera  if you want to darken skies or enhance foliage, etc. to any Monochrome shooters, is this true?

Regards,

Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[Jeff S]

42 minutes ago, budjames said:

How about an SL2 Monochrome? (Don’t hate me, please.)

I read an article years ago that with a monochrome M, you lose the ability add filter effects in post processing like you can with color DNG files. Instead, you have to use filters on the camera  if you want to darken skies or enhance foliage, etc. to any Monochrome shooters, is this true?

Regards,

Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

Yes, there is no color array over a monochrome sensor, hence no ability to use color channels in PP.  But of course editing software still provides many other controls that can affect tonal relationships.

Jeff

[Herr Barnack]

On 1/8/2020 at 9:19 AM, jaapv said:

Which would be vast overkill. On a monochrome sensor that would be the equivalent of a 65 MP+ Bayer sensor.

Just wondering - how do you arrive at the figure of 65MP?

And with an effective pixel count of 40.89 MP, where does that equivalency end up for the M10 Monochrom?

Edited January 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[jaapv]

It is an approximate guess - the higher MP count is by the lack of a Bayer filter - the interpolation reduces the resolution of a sensor by at least 30%, depending on the algorithms used.

[PeterGA]

 

On 1/24/2020 at 9:20 AM, jaapv said:

It is an approximate guess - the higher MP count is by the lack of a Bayer filter - the interpolation reduces the resolution of a sensor by at least 30%, depending on the algorithms used.

It is an interesting conversation to have - namely : "what is the required MP count to arrive at the  'tilting point' at which PP of a colour raw file is equivalent to the output of a panchromatic (B&W) file" ?

The 'guess' would have to change according to each and every particular image as the specifics of red/blue/green and associated gain(s) required in the 'algorithms' used will change accordingly.

I suspect that 60-80MP would provide enough 'elbow room' to cover for all likely contingencies and shooting scenarios - as well as for the most obsessive (discerning?) eye - interested in exploring and using the tonal palette afforded by a true 'monochrom' camera. 

This means that the current line-up of Leicas chip offerings in any model are 'inadequate' according to highest standards described above.

For the time poor or for those who suffer an allergic reaction to heavy PP requirements (and a different at the margin or more) workflow required for each and every shot made versus the out of the box excellence assuming capable user and best practice may well be the easier path to walk.

Of course the whole discussion about what 'at the margin' means and how much is one prepared to pay for marginal amenity (assuming colour cameras at ones disposal are up to the task anyway) is a personal one - and discussing indifference curves is fraught with dangers.

I suspect that I will 'fold' and get one - but only after I have tested against same shots made in same conditions using both SL2/GFX .

* As an aside the only M camera I've ever regretted selling is the original MM - I just got tired of having to use neutral density filters - this MM's base 160ISO fixes a lot of issues.

 

[jaapv]

No, the actual colour distribution will not affect the resolution loss by Bayer interpolation. The Bayer filter is a fixed pattern and it will not change by the light received. The loss by interpolation will be about 30% depending on the pattern of the image received (not the colour). This is not considering the optical aberrations introduced by the composite filter itself.

A monochrome sensor will transmit each pixel 1:1, so the point is that a non-Bayer 40 MP sensor will deliver 40 MP, and a Bayer 40 MP sensor less than 30.

[PeterGA]

You are positing that one should expect to 'need' 25% more megapixels (30/40) in a Bayered camera to match the 'resolution' of a monochrom camera....which means that one would need a 1.25X 40MP or 50MP to match the MM. Therefore by your own argument there is no current Leica chip available to match the MM B&W file.

Now I don't know where you arrived at the initial 40 down to 30 'resolution loss' nor do I wish to enter a rabbit hole of to and fro on the red herring you introduced - called 'resolution loss'...

but it seems to me that you own 'logic' shows that the MM B&W file can not be replicated by post processing - since the existing Leica chips are at 47MP.

As for your "No" exclamation - you are forgetting that in order to deliver a B&W image from a 'colour file' one needs to alter the three primary colour colours in PP - at which point one is mucking around with stuff like 'noise' especially in blue chanel etc etc etc ...

So you might be happy to describe the MM as some sort of unnecessary extravagance using nonsensical vehicular metaphors - others like me might prefer to look at the reasons why people might be interested in such a camera.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

I think you misunderstood and certainly misinterpreted my posts. 

A monochrom sensor will be able to bring the full resolution into the output. Every one pixel on the sensor will be rendered on your final image. A Bayer-filtered sensor will lose resolution through interpolation and  filtering losses. To reach the same effective resolution as a monochrom sensor it needs a higher MP count than the nominal one.  Which - as you note- Leica doesn't supply. 

Maybe you are unaware how a sensor works. A sensel (AKA pixel) is an analog measuring device that has no colour output, just light density (except on a Foveon sensor).The output of each pixel will be converted into a digital number by an ADC circuit. There is a colour filter in front of the sensor consisting of a mosaic pattern of small RGB filters called a Bayer pattern. The firmware of the camera "knows" the colour of each filter in front of each pixel and will interpret the respective density readings of the individual pixels in a group to assign a colour value. Simply explained, it will have  (monochrome)  ¼ the number of pixels for red, ¼  for blue and ½  the number for green pixel assignations. Then it will calculate the RGB values from these three low resolution data sets. Obviously this will lead to interpretation errors, so the software will use algorithms to correct them* This whole interpolation process will inevitably lead to resolution loss.
A monochrome sensor has no Bayer filter and no interpretation software. Thus there are no interpolation losses, nor optical losses by the Bayer filter. As there are no colour filters in front of the sensor, it will be able to capture more light too, leading to higher sensitivity and less noise.

It has nothing to do with postprocessing. Converting an image to B&W in a postprocessing program is nothing more than assigning the same RGB values to the three colour channels. A simple lossless mathematical operation, not mucking around with pots of paint. But it cannot add the data that are missing because they have been lost in the original process of creating the colour file. 

*I have skipped the demosaicing stage of the sensor output processing for simplicity's sake.

BTW, it is not a red herring, but a red, green and blue dotted herring