Should Leica Abandon The M8?

[plasticman]

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Lets get real here, the M8 was the first attempt at a DRF, I'm sure leica are working on the next evolution and I'm sure there will be some improvements as the technology allows...

 

Well, I'm guessing you meant to write "Leica's first attempt at a DRF"...

 

In many ways, I wish I could combine the simplicity of operation of my Epson digital rangefinder with some more of the great characteristics of my film Leica Ms. Such a combination might well be the (or maybe just my) perfect digital M!

[jaapv]

What if Panasonic buys Leica and then infuses cash? Is it possible to have the best of German engineering and Japanese production/quality control (plus Panasonic has money)

 

Thank you,

Arif

 

Pretty unlikely I'd say, cash for R&D and upgrading infrastructure does not seem to be the problem right now.

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[dpattinson]

Why would they abandon their entry level digital M?

 

I think it far more likely that they will retain the M8, perhaps with the 'upgrades' and possibly other improvements, as their entry-level camera.

 

I expect there will be a full frame camera eventually, so long as Leica stay in business long enough for the technology to appear to make it possible. Experience tells us that technology is very likely to be forthcoming, and may already be available albeit not at a viable cost. I expect part of the production of this camera would be improving the tolerance of their lenses to ensure they work optimally.

 

Apple have made a very good business out of releasing lower-powered models early, and following up with the higher-spec model later on. It works very well with 'desirable' items because the early adopters end up buying both I see no reason why Leica would not have adopted the same strategy with the M.

 

Personally I didn't buy my first M camera because of the lenses - i bought it because of the usability. The rampant popularity of the CV lenses puts the lie to the idea that it's all about the lenses. I think they would be venturing into very dangerous waters with a complete redesign - after all... they tried it once before (M5).

[Eoin]

Well, I'm guessing you meant to write "Leica's first attempt at a DRF"...

 

Yes, well spotted, I was referring to Leica's first attempt to bring a DRF to market.

[jaapv]

I've never read such a load of bull in all my time here, to suggest Leica did something wrong by using existing lenses with a digital sensor is nonsense. What did Canon, Nikon and other manufacturers do when they introduced digital bodies. Did they go out and design a complete new lens line up?. As time has evolved they have introduced lenses which are more digital compatible such as the 85L mkII comes to mind. Specific coatings for digital if memory serves me.

 

You're obviously and never have been happy with the purchase of your M8. Perhaps it's time for you to consider drawing a line in the sand and deciding is it really worth all this personal anguish you seem to be putting yourself under. I can't for the life of me see why you persist with the camera, it seems to be well below your requirements.

 

But please just because you want carbon comp bodies, variable view finders, weather sealing and a new line of lenses and want to shoot fast doesn't mean this requires a complete redesign, No you need to look at a DSLR for your requirements. Period.

 

Lets get real here, the M8 was the first attempt at a DRF, I'm sure leica are working on the next evolution and I'm sure there will be some improvements as the technology allows, In the mean time I'll use a perfectly good camera and take images that meet my needs......and I'll be happy, happy I actually have a DRF that produces quality files in such a small form factor.

 

You on the other hand seem to have been conditioned by the never ending upgrade trail and short life cycles of other manufacturers, You need to exercise patience, Rome was not built in a day.

 

Barjohn is a lawyer. I'm sure he is aware of the penalties for inciting, aiding and abetting suicide :D Maybe they don't apply to companies

[veraikon]

What if Panasonic buys Leica and then infuses cash?

Leica belongs ACM . And ACM ist the family of Mr Kaufmann. Leica - and Cosina both are

middle sized family owned manufactories

[Amoment]

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I like my M8, it's a tool which suits my style of photography, but I don't think it makes me a better photographer.

 

Ok it was expensive, no one forced me to buy it, I did it of my own free will. Last year I bought a 2 seater sports car, at times having only 2 seats is inconvenient, but it was my choice.

 

If the M8 is not what you want, then why buy it in the first place. When enough people don't buy it, then Leica will abandon it.

 

Stuart

[hankg]

When Leica introduced the M3 it made a radical break from the tradition of it's screw mount camera's including lens mount. I'm sure it upset more then a few users. However back then the RF camera was a mainstream pro camera today it's a tiny niche market.

 

There really is no practical way that Leica could start from a blank sheet of paper as it did with the M3 for the current RF market. It needs the entire base of M mount users to survive. It could develop a new direction under the guise of a digital Leica CL keeping the M mount, using a APS-C chip and maybe introducing it with a crop sensor digital specific small fast 35mm equivalent lens.

 

This would give them 2 lines: the hopefully one day full frame M with M mount and traditional M body plus the cropped sensor smaller, cheaper and more modern CL line with M mount and a 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor. While the M8 line could pursue ultimate IQ and stick faithfully to the M3 body and user interface the CL line could focus on getting back to the essence of the original Leica's which were not chosen for IQ but as the ultimate reportage camera.

 

The 2 line concept works for the DSLR manufacturers.

[stevelap]

I've never read such a load of bull in all my time here, to suggest Leica did something wrong by using existing lenses with a digital sensor is nonsense. What did Canon, Nikon and other manufacturers do when they introduced digital bodies. Did they go out and design a complete new lens line up?. As time has evolved they have introduced lenses which are more digital compatible such as the 85L mkII comes to mind. Specific coatings for digital if memory serves me.

 

You're obviously and never have been happy with the purchase of your M8. Perhaps it's time for you to consider drawing a line in the sand and deciding is it really worth all this personal anguish you seem to be putting yourself under. I can't for the life of me see why you persist with the camera, it seems to be well below your requirements.

 

But please just because you want carbon comp bodies, variable view finders, weather sealing and a new line of lenses and want to shoot fast doesn't mean this requires a complete redesign, No you need to look at a DSLR for your requirements. Period.

 

Lets get real here, the M8 was the first attempt at a DRF, I'm sure leica are working on the next evolution and I'm sure there will be some improvements as the technology allows, In the mean time I'll use a perfectly good camera and take images that meet my needs......and I'll be happy, happy I actually have a DRF that produces quality files in such a small form factor.

 

You on the other hand seem to have been conditioned by the never ending upgrade trail and short life cycles of other manufacturers, You need to exercise patience, Rome was not built in a day.

I tend to agree Eoin. Leica has never pretended that the M8 was meant to ride the bow wave of the digital imaging revolutionary charge.

Rather it was intended as an evolutionary development which would ensure the continuation of the M line into the digital era.

 

That's not to say that there isn't a need for further development, of course there is, nor that there isn't room for a complimentary DRF within Leica's model range (if they have the necessary funds and engineering resources for such a project, alongside further development of the M and R). But let's remember how and why the M8 came to exist and how important that development was, and still is, for a relatively small company with Leica's heritage.

 

I would love to see an M8 mkII or M9 eventually, and yes I'd like to think that Leica could be more innovative in it's design and technology, whilst still keeping the camera recognisable as a continuation of the M lineage.

[Rolo]

Have Leica ever abandoned anything ?

 

May be one of their great virtues.

 

Fix AND enhance would be a 'double bennie'.

 

It's soon going to be even better to be a Leica customer.

 

Rolo

[earleygallery]

Smaller, lighter, better, cheaper.

 

Yes of course, come on Leica, see how easy it is, pull your finger out!

[plasticman]

This would give them 2 lines: the hopefully one day full frame M with M mount and traditional M body plus the cropped sensor smaller, cheaper and more modern CL line with M mount and a 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor. While the M8 line could pursue ultimate IQ and stick faithfully to the M3 body and user interface the CL line could focus on getting back to the essence of the original Leica's which were not chosen for IQ but as the ultimate reportage camera.

 

That sounds about right! So long as Leica haven't chosen more electronic options in their digital CL line (like an electronic viewfinder, for instance) which would mean I'd have to abandon the idea of opting for one - when it's released (not if), according to Dr Kaufmann's stated plans.

[Guest jimmy pro]

How many does anyone think Leica would sell of a new camera at or above the cost of a M8, if it also meant buying a set of new lenses at there currently mindblowing prices?

[lct]

How many does anyone think Leica would sell of a new camera at or above the cost of a M8, if it also meant buying a set of new lenses at there currently mindblowing prices?

As few as $10,000 R10's with larger than FF sensor i guess.

[Saloti]

In a world of fast changing technology, sooner or later every company faces the dilemma of creating a product that cuts lose from its past or building a new product that is seriously hampered by trying to maintain backward compatibility.

 

The M family of lenses is a perfect example of this problem. The M8 was the manifestation of Leica's choice. However, trying to take lenses designed for film and building a digital camera with film like tolerances illustrates why most engineers would have preferred a clean slate. In addition to all of the teething problems Leica has faced trying to move the camera from film to digital, it has tarnished its reputation on lenses too. Issues that might never have shown up on a film camera such as the back focus and front focus errors in brand new lenses are all over this and other web sites.

 

It is time to stop with the M8, let it die its natural death which will come all too quickly and start with a new RF camera that is modern with lenses that will work with the new body. It should be small (smaller than the M8), far more ergonomic in controls, and far more modern in features such as a FF sensor (or larger if need be), rather than frame lines, adjust image magnification so the frame is constant and accurate for the distance or use electronic frame lines that adjust for distance. Electronically couples lenses so f-stop, focal length and distance to subject are all captured. No sloppy cam and roller constantly needing adjustment. New lighter lenses custom made for the camera. Both camera body and lens body made from carbon composite for light weight with complete weather sealing. ISO as good as the D700 or better. Fast internal processor for fast shooting with a very large buffer.

 

People will pay more for small size, light weight and high tech. You pay much more for a super light weight laptop weighing 3 lbs or less than a 5 lb or greater notebook. Why? People want small and light weight and they know it costs more to miniaturize.

 

So I say abandon the M8 and move into the 21st century and leap frog the competition. It is time to know when to quit flogging that old nag and get a thoroughbred if you want to win the race.

 

My friend,

 

very, very fortunately you are not the head of Leica product management, thanks

god...

[lct]

... So long as Leica haven't chosen more electronic options in their digital CL line (like an electronic viewfinder, for instance) which would mean I'd have to abandon the idea of opting for one...

So would i, after the red-nosed-noisy M8 we would have the tv-set-digi CL, thanks no thanks. Better allow CL (and M) users to adjust themselves the RF alignment without breaking the warranty if need be.

[Amoment]

"A bad workman blames his tools"

 

Would Capa have blamed his memory card?

 

Stuart

[Artichoke]

"A bad workman blames his tools"

 

Would Capa have blamed his memory card?

 

Stuart

 

as Robert Capa lost most of what was perhaps his most important assignment when the film from his D Day landing photographs was mishandled in the haste to get them developed

[Rolo]

as Robert Capa lost most of what was perhaps his most important assignment when the film from his D Day landing photographs was mishandled in the haste to get them developed

 

Yep, the old 'blame it on the lab' story.

 

Works every time, especially if there's a new kid working in there. "we'd sack him, but he's only 17".

 

If he was around now, he'd be using a dual card system !

 

Rolo

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[gfspencer]

For me its been a niche camera ever since I got my first leica, an M6. If the digital M didn't take M lenses I would have just made do with film Ms and my Canon digital would be used more but enjoyed less than my simple M6. My M8 still delivers that M pleasure despite all its flaws.

Same here! Sure, the M8 body is not perfect and it is expensive but it lets me use my Leica lenses . . . and that is important to me.