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Anyone having regrets about their M10M?


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11 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Not my experience.  At same (small/moderate) print sizes, I shoot my M10 Monochrom (and M10-R) at the same lower handheld shutter speeds that I used in daylight with my M10… and M240…and M(9) Monochrom…and M8.2…. and various film M’s before that (with moderately fast film). Of course I use a tripod for optimal sharpness. 

Jeff

Hi Jeff, I’m talking about files on the computer, when editing them on Lightroom or viewing them on a laptop screen (13inches) I can clearly see motion blur at speeds below 1/250 which bothers me, therefore I have my camera set up to auto-iso up to 25,000, 1/250 as minimum shutter speed, and this allows me to get consistent results for my type of photography (portraits / street). I rarely print digital files so don’t have any experience with that. I also sometimes simply put the shutter speed at 1/1000 and leave it there. 

Not a big issue for me as I shoot mostly during day time, so it works just fine and I never have any problems, but I can only imagine if a future MM ever has IBIS, then you will be able to shoot in the dark literally. 

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28 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

Hi Jeff, I’m talking about files on the computer, when editing them on Lightroom or viewing them on a laptop screen (13inches) I can clearly see motion blur at speeds below 1/250 which bothers me, therefore I have my camera set up to auto-iso up to 25,000, 1/250 as minimum shutter speed, and this allows me to get consistent results for my type of photography (portraits / street). I rarely print digital files so don’t have any experience with that. I also sometimes simply put the shutter speed at 1/1000 and leave it there. 

Not a big issue for me as I shoot mostly during day time, so it works just fine and I never have any problems, but I can only imagine if a future MM ever has IBIS, then you will be able to shoot in the dark literally. 

At same magnifications, even on screen, one should see same amount of blur resulting from camera holding technique.  Increased magnifications, however, will reveal issues that were likely there before, but unnoticed. Nonetheless, prints have always been my end output for worthy pics, film or digital, and I’ve always preferred small-ish prints, at least by recent standards. But each person has his/her own goals and requirements.

Jeff

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I sometimes wonder whether my mistake was in failing to acquire an M10 Monochrom. In January 2021, and again, in early 2022, I carefully weighed the options. I knew, in advance, that my income would be reduced, by the second quarter of 2022. I decided to acquire some “faster” lenses, to let more light enter my M Type 246 Monochrom. Thus far, no regrets, but, I do wonder…

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I agree 100%. Sold my M10M and "upgraded" to the M11 and I regret it every day. Got rid of the M11 after a few months and am using a Hasselblad X2D now (which I absolutely adore). Reading this post has made me seriously consider tracking down another M10M and buying it together with either a 28/5.6 summaron or a 35/1.4.

Or, of course the Q2M (which I can find brand new for 4.900€.)

I hate and love these mental gymnastics with equal measure. But there is no doubt that my favourite ever camera was the M10M.

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  • 1 month later...

Closed my ring and resuming normal operations… Could walk back and get probably one of the last new M10M in stock at a nearby store. Could get a super sexy price because officially discontinued, and a very good trade in for that M11 I really did not like, and I’m happy as can be with the step back that did not cost me too much in the end. In aviation, we say « good judgment comes from experience - unfortunately experience comes from bad judgment ».

Next stop is Q3.

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  • 10 months later...
On 11/14/2022 at 3:27 PM, shirubadanieru said:

To be honest, that was an issue with the M10M as well, 40MP is way too much for a rangefinder, I felt I couldn’t shoot it anywhere below 1/250 when I had it as I would get less sharp images…everyone praises the M10M/M11 for the amazing ISO, but if we really think about it I could shoot film or the M9/M240 at 1/30 no problem…that’s a 3 stop difference. It’s like going from ISO 1600 (quite usable on the M9M) to ISO 12000 or something on an M10/M11, which is probably the maximum one can go to get usable results…so at the end of the day, no real major improvements in terms of usable ISO (if you think about it in terms of shutter speed + ISO combined)…I still loved the M10M though and would be happy getting it again if I go back to shooting digital…The M11 is even worse though for sure, and I definitely cannot get great shots with it at ISO 12000, that M11…man, hated that camera, sold it within a week and really wonder if the M digital cameras will ever be worth it again for me (but I love film / M9M more than anything so I understand I may be a minority here).

I'm not jamming with the m10m at all. I have a Leica Q, an M9 and M10

Love the images from all of them. So sharp and super predictable.. With the m10m which was my dream camera for 2 years! I find that all the flaws that you dont see on the m10 and m9 shows up so sooo much more..
Like corner sharpness, small motion blur in moving images (where 1/750 is fine with the m10 for people walking, you will get motion blur on hands/feet and so on with the m10m at the same speed alot)
 
You also loose depth of filed. So where i was always using a 28mm @ F5,6 for 99% my shots with great results in the street, with the m10m i feel like i need to focus much more precises' and i need to be shooting at F7 -F8 to get similar results. Even then, i can see the midframe as weaker, and corners as weaker.
 
With the m10, i can do a portrait shoot with the 35mm @ F1.4, focus on the eyes, then recompose so the subject is in the midzone, and it would look 99% as good as if i shoot the same portrait with the subject in the center. With the m10m, im not happy with the sharpness at all.. Even if I'm using a EVF.
 
I will use it more and see if I can adept, but right now, i feel like a M246 would be a lot better.
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After 9 years of shooting an M9M, I upgraded to the M10M in December and just love it. I tried the M11M against the M10M and found that I could usually hold the camera at 1/30 using a 50mm Summicron but that I can do it more reliably with the M10M. This is important to me as I like dragging the shutter in order to convey movement in the image. Given this and the nearly $4,000 I saved by buying a slightly used M10M, the choice was clear. 

Coming from the M9M to the M10M was something like changing from a 2010 iMac to a 2021 iMac. Sure, the older computer can get the job done, but the newer one is just way, way more capable and refined. 

Sure, the M11M has some great features such as removing the bottom plate and USB charging. Still, I don’t think these features are so compelling that I regret my purchase. On the contrary, as I never had these features on my M9M, I don’t miss them.  

My next question will be when to sell my M9M and my ME and, then whether I should just pocket the funds or buy an M10-R in order to have both color and BW. For now, tho, I really like the M10M and have no regrets. 

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1 hour ago, AceVentura1986 said:

After 9 years of shooting an M9M, I upgraded to the M10M in December and just love it. I tried the M11M against the M10M and found that I could usually hold the camera at 1/30 using a 50mm Summicron but that I can do it more reliably with the M10M. This is important to me as I like dragging the shutter in order to convey movement in the image. Given this and the nearly $4,000 I saved by buying a slightly used M10M, the choice was clear. 

Coming from the M9M to the M10M was something like changing from a 2010 iMac to a 2021 iMac. Sure, the older computer can get the job done, but the newer one is just way, way more capable and refined. 

Sure, the M11M has some great features such as removing the bottom plate and USB charging. Still, I don’t think these features are so compelling that I regret my purchase. On the contrary, as I never had these features on my M9M, I don’t miss them.  

My next question will be when to sell my M9M and my ME and, then whether I should just pocket the funds or buy an M10-R in order to have both color and BW. For now, tho, I really like the M10M and have no regrets. 

I actually like the old bottom plate, and it together with the increase in resolution and new light meter of the sensor.. Makes me not want an M11 at all. I loved the old quirks of the M’s😅

I’m also a “weirdo” that pixel peep, because one of the things I love with the M10/M9, is how sharp it looks compared to other 24-26 megapixel cameras I have, and how easy it is to use on the streets! 

I don't need a bigger print then 19X27 inch on a canvas.  And I rarely print that.

I also don’t understand the ones that buy an M11, then print super small and or resize the images and therefore all the “flaws” like motion blur, loss of perceived depth of field, loss of midzone sharpness/edge sharpness and ISO noise @ 100%  is  a non issue. 🤷‍♂️

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Got my M11M 2 weeks ago and love it so far.

SInce I went from the M10r to M11 (I saw some slight advantages for each of it but more for the M11) I knew I would want the M11M over the M10M.

For me the exposure metering, battery, USB-C for charging and image transfer, the internal storage, the faster access to battery, the bigger image in the EVF (for wide angle and longer focal lengths) are worth it. But I would be very happy with a M10 as well.

For me, if I don't shoot action or fast pace, the M is the most fun camera. I just love the simple user interface, the optical viewfinder, the small size and the solid feel.

 

 

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On 2/21/2024 at 7:59 AM, AceVentura1986 said:

should just pocket the funds or buy an M10-R in order to have both color and BW. For now, tho, I really like the M10M and have no regrets. 

I have that set up and could not be more pleased. As my accessories are interchangeable it sweetens the experience. I just have to choose which camera to use as shooting both color and b&w digitally in the same session ia a bit frustrating so picking one camera per session works best for me.

Edited by rpsawin
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  • 1 month later...

I spent two years trying to get to like the M11 and finally gave up and became 'M-less' a few months ago. I have (finally) tracked down an as new M10M and will be picking it up in a few days - yee haaa.

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On 2/21/2024 at 4:59 AM, AceVentura1986 said:

...whether I should just pocket the funds or buy an M10-R in order to have both color and BW. For now, tho, I really like the M10M and have no regrets. 

 

On 2/23/2024 at 9:16 AM, rpsawin said:

I have that set up and could not be more pleased. As my accessories are interchangeable it sweetens the experience. I just have to choose which camera to use as shooting both color and b&w digitally in the same session ia a bit frustrating so picking one camera per session works best for me.

I also found the M10-M so appealing that went for a used M10-R a year later so as to have the same body with both monochrom and color sensors. Thus far, no interest in an M11 at all from me ... these two Ms are enough (plus my evergreen M4-2 for film). 

Haven't run into the "which camera to choose" problem yet. It's pretty obvious to me when I think about going out for some shooting whether I want color or BW ... I only ever carry one camera at a time, and usually just one lens although I will occasionally carry two lenses. 

I see a lot of worry about keeping shutter speed high to prevent any motion blur. If I'm that serious about it, I use a sturdy tripod. Otherwise, the photos I make look fine even at 1/15 sec, hand held. (Frankly, I'm more likely to carry my travel tripod than a second lens, if I'm in that kind of mood.)

I was playing with my Summicron-M 28mm f/2. I think I'd like one of the Summaron-M 28mm f/5.6 too... I like what I see of the latter's rendering qualities. Maybe if I don't spend all my money on my car project, I'll give myself one of them. ;)

G

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I think camera shake has always been an issue.  Fine grain film (ISO 25/50) shows camera shake more than high speed film (ISO 1600) not because of shutter speed, but because of grain size.  With the higher MP sensors, it shows our technique failing in some cases, which was always there but maybe the larger pixel size didn’t capture it as much.

Here’s my question:  with the M11 sized sensor, if you have a slight shake in the image, what happens if you down size the image from, say 60mp to 24mp?  Does it go away?  I haven’t tried it, just curious.

I loved my M10M very hard and got one the first month released.  I did upgrade an M10 to an M11-P and loved the color output of the M11 sensor so much, I finally picked up a used M11M.  I love the tonality of the sensor and sometimes just shoot it at medium size DNG hand held, reserving the larges DNG for tripod work (hence, less chance for image blur).

Just some thoughts / questions.

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Camera shake and blur don’t matter…. Movement is all part of the image….

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Posted (edited)
On 4/11/2024 at 7:09 AM, davidmknoble said:

Here’s my question:  with the M11 sized sensor, if you have a slight shake in the image, what happens if you down size the image from, say 60mp to 24mp?  Does it go away?  I haven’t tried it, just curious.

Don't have an M11, but with my 47 mp Leicas  and 45mp Nikons if I down size to 24mp the results are basically the same as if took the shot with a 24mp sensor, including camera shake and ISO noise performance.

Edited by Luke_Miller
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  • 1 month later...

I'm a recent purchaser of a M10M and still wrapping my head around this thing.

I've been using a Q2 for about 3 years, about 50/50 color vs b&w... figured i'd continue with it for color and play with the M10M and see how i like it.

I totally get it, but i'm still deep in the workflow learning curve as how to get results I love from it.  Partially this is because my test shots so far have not been particularly good ... but that's on me.

I've been using the C1 "Beyond b&w" film styles for conversion, and been happy with that.

I love the idea of a "less" processed workflow with the M10M, but i'm not quite there yet.

Anyone have a simple workflow with C1 that they love or want to share?

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23 hours ago, KenRothman said:

I'm a recent purchaser of a M10M and still wrapping my head around this thing.

I've been using a Q2 for about 3 years, about 50/50 color vs b&w... figured i'd continue with it for color and play with the M10M and see how i like it.

I totally get it, but i'm still deep in the workflow learning curve as how to get results I love from it.  Partially this is because my test shots so far have not been particularly good ... but that's on me.

I've been using the C1 "Beyond b&w" film styles for conversion, and been happy with that.

I love the idea of a "less" processed workflow with the M10M, but i'm not quite there yet.

Anyone have a simple workflow with C1 that they love or want to share?

I don’t work with c1 anymore, but would not apply a preset to a monochrom file from the start. You need to learn your files. Most probably they are rather flat, so therefore I created my own preset which adjusted curves to my liking: more contrast, deeper blacks.

Most often, this preset, with minor adjustments when needed is all what I do for quick editing.

Often presets are developed for color files, not for monochrom.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2024 at 2:10 PM, KenRothman said:

I love the idea of a "less" processed workflow with the M10M, but i'm not quite there yet.

 

Never my goal. The M10M requires the same effort, decision making and judgment as using my color based cameras; just a modified workflow to suit the files and my rendering intent (that can vary by pic). For me, a monochrome based camera is more about shooting mindset, without color distraction. The rest is simply a learning curve, not faster or less thought.

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Never my goal. The M10M requires the same effort, decision making and judgment as using my color based cameras; just a modified workflow to suit the files and my rendering intent (that can vary by pic). For me, a monochrome based camera is more about shooting mindset, without color distraction. The rest is simply a learning curve, not faster or less thought.

Jeff

Yeah, cool... I get that...

My workflow in general is to crop to taste and try to get the image looking good as quickly as I can w/o too much work... to be honest.

I think in this case, as you said, it's learning curve.  (Perhaps learning "curves" a bit more, in terms of post-processing)

For me that means working with what I've got, getting the exposure and contrast tuned to where i'd like it, and moving on.

Over the last couple of weeks since I've gotten the M10M, making some progress... at least as far as I'm concerned :)

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