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Anyone having regrets about their M10M?


snooper

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Ok let me be very clear: I made a huge mistake. I was amongst the first French customers to get a M10M when it went out. Loved it. Had all the previous monochrome iterations, but the M10M came like the perfect camera. 

Then came the mistake. My usual suspects @ Leica told me that the M11 would do the job to replace the M10M AND get that color shot you would miss if you were to be carrying only the mono.

So I did this stupid trade in. Mono out and M11 in. But the M11 is NOT at all my fav camera. Actually I hate it. Motion blur being the first concern, forcing you to use very high Iso and therefore loose all the XX millions megapixels advantages. But that is just an opinion, and I share it with myself after using my M11 less than 250 shots.

I was wondering if someone here would have the same feeling about their M10M, with a camera left unused on the shelf... Kind of "why did I buy this camera, I should have get a M11".

And then comes the proposal : take my M11 and give me your unused (same condition) M10M !!! 😁

Have a great day !

 

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Snooper,   I read your OP thread a couple times and understand your angst.  I had a M10-R and was one fo the first in the US to get a M11.  After 6 weeks and 2500+ images, I went back to the M10-R. No regrets, just a great tool that helps me create photographs that work for me.  Before that, I thought getting a M10 would negate the need for a M10-M and like you, swapped with the dealer.  My error was quickly realized and I swapped back to the M10-M after 1 week.  The M10-M creates B&W files that exceed my expectations and on occasion my clients who buy my B&W landscape photographs.  I am certain other photographers will write their own experiences.  For me, the M10-M and M10-R simply work best for helping me create photographs that render what I see.  If your M11 doesn't work for you, then go back to the camera that did work.   r/ Mark 

Edited by LeicaR10
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Got 250 shots just because I did not use it at all. It's just an opinion of course, and there is no frustration at all but I really think that the M10 was the max possible sensor sophistication for a M body with no IBIS. I can remember shooting damn sharp images with the M4P handheld at 1/15th of a sec, M9 no issues at 1/30th, etc. Ok maybe I'm getting older too 😆... Nowadays you're taking a chance bellow 1/125th or 1/250th. I dont complain and I'm fine with learning my lessons, but when I look at the M11 image thread on this forum I can see substantial motion blurs, making me believe I'm not the only one with that issue. I saw lots of vignetting too, of course depending on the lenses, but using both APOs M (35 and 50) I think there is an issue there too.

Anyways I wont go for any M11M that is for sure, and I'll trade the M11 for an M10M with no need to think about it twice 😜

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15 hours ago, snooper said:

Motion blur being the first concern, forcing you to use very high Iso and therefore loose all the XX millions megapixels advantages.

I see no major disadvantages with 60mpix at a bit higher ISO... In fact, we add "2.5 grain" for every printed matter we publish, magazine editorials, calendars, etc. so it looks more organic. Auto ISO takes care of you for always having 1/250s shutter speed set, fast lenses keep the grain low. Super easy and super convenient.
I do get your frustration with the trade though. Just trade back and spend the difference on something fun.

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Zero regrets here and my M10M is my most-used camera by far.  When the M11 was released my local Leica shop encouraged me to try it but I turned it down as I rarely if ever shoot in color and converting color images to monochrome kills all joy in the process for me.  If I want to take black and white photos, then I take black and white photos with a Monochrom or mono emulsions.  Full stop. 

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The M10M is my most used camera, there is something about shooting with it that I find truly enjoyable. When I decided to add a colour M, I added the m11. If the BP M10 R had been available I probably would have purchased that.  I took a very long time to enjoy the M11. 
i found it took time to learn the M11 and slowly ‘bonded’ with it whereas it was instant with the M10M. 

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5 hours ago, Sjz said:

… I took a very long time to enjoy the M11. i found it took time to learn the M11 and slowly ‘bonded’ with it whereas it was instant with the M10M. 

That’s encouraging to hear, because I keep reaching for the M10M when I want to go out. Maybe more time with M11 in hand will lead to ‘bonding”.

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On 11/13/2022 at 7:31 PM, snooper said:

Got 250 shots just because I did not use it at all. It's just an opinion of course, and there is no frustration at all but I really think that the M10 was the max possible sensor sophistication for a M body with no IBIS. I can remember shooting damn sharp images with the M4P handheld at 1/15th of a sec, M9 no issues at 1/30th, etc. Ok maybe I'm getting older too 😆... Nowadays you're taking a chance bellow 1/125th or 1/250th. I dont complain and I'm fine with learning my lessons, but when I look at the M11 image thread on this forum I can see substantial motion blurs, making me believe I'm not the only one with that issue. I saw lots of vignetting too, of course depending on the lenses, but using both APOs M (35 and 50) I think there is an issue there too.

Anyways I wont go for any M11M that is for sure, and I'll trade the M11 for an M10M with no need to think about it twice 😜

To be honest, that was an issue with the M10M as well, 40MP is way too much for a rangefinder, I felt I couldn’t shoot it anywhere below 1/250 when I had it as I would get less sharp images…everyone praises the M10M/M11 for the amazing ISO, but if we really think about it I could shoot film or the M9/M240 at 1/30 no problem…that’s a 3 stop difference. It’s like going from ISO 1600 (quite usable on the M9M) to ISO 12000 or something on an M10/M11, which is probably the maximum one can go to get usable results…so at the end of the day, no real major improvements in terms of usable ISO (if you think about it in terms of shutter speed + ISO combined)…I still loved the M10M though and would be happy getting it again if I go back to shooting digital…The M11 is even worse though for sure, and I definitely cannot get great shots with it at ISO 12000, that M11…man, hated that camera, sold it within a week and really wonder if the M digital cameras will ever be worth it again for me (but I love film / M9M more than anything so I understand I may be a minority here).

Edited by shirubadanieru
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I have no problem getting good results with 1/30 second, or even the occasional 1/15 second, with the M10-M, hand held, as long as I'm using a lens in the 28-50mm focal length range. Longer and shorter lenses both need a bit more stability for best results.

The exact same is true when I'm shooting with the M4-2. 

That said ... Hand held exposures are never as sharp as when I use a tripod or camera support, even at 1/1000 second or shorter shutter times. With any camera.

G

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I have the M11 and M10M and find myself using the M11 far more. And I LOVE the M10M. 

There are a couple of reasons - one is the visoflex experience with the M11 is much, much better. It's the live-view lag that kills the M10M for me and I use the visoflex with all lenses wider than 28mm. 

I also don't have issues with the sensor size. The high ISO performance of the M11 is good enough, and if I'm using a slow shutter speed I usually want to make it look like I'm using a slow shutter speed... so some blur is fine with me. I think that the way I photograph has morphed a little to the point where I'm not getting the most out of the high ISO performance of the M10M as I once did. I've embraced the blur. 

On that subject - call me crazy but I've fallen trap to the uncanny valley in photography where my brain things a photograph taken in low light conditions should look like it was taken in low light conditions. To me that means a visibly apparent long shutter speed, with the resulting blur. These days when I look at an image taken in low light of a moving subject where the action is frozen, my brain rejects it. It's as annoying to me as HDR now.  I'm sure it stems from a hundred years of photography in low light having a certain look to it... and if it doesn't look like that, it's not "realistic". Kinda crazy I know.

I'm actually considering selling the M10M, which is something I never thought I would say... but I do like using wide lenses enough that the live-view improvements on the M11 are worth the trade-offs. M10M is the better black and white camera, hands down. But it's a lot of money sitting there and at the end of the day I'm not getting enough use out of it. 

Not sure if that helps you or not, but it's one more point of view.

 

Edited by Stevejack
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On 11/14/2022 at 3:27 PM, shirubadanieru said:

To be honest, that was an issue with the M10M as well, 40MP is way too much for a rangefinder, I felt I couldn’t shoot it anywhere below 1/250 when I had it as I would get less sharp images…everyone praises the M10M/M11 for the amazing ISO, but if we really think about it I could shoot film or the M9/M240 at 1/30 no problem…that’s a 3 stop difference. It’s like going from ISO 1600 (quite usable on the M9M) to ISO 12000 or something on an M10/M11, which is probably the maximum one can go to get usable results…so at the end of the day, no real major improvements in terms of usable ISO (if you think about it in terms of shutter speed + ISO combined)…I still loved the M10M though and would be happy getting it again if I go back to shooting digital…The M11 is even worse though for sure, and I definitely cannot get great shots with it at ISO 12000, that M11…man, hated that camera, sold it within a week and really wonder if the M digital cameras will ever be worth it again for me (but I love film / M9M more than anything so I understand I may be a minority here).

If you can only get sharp images at 1/250 and above on 40MP, you need to look into basic technique.

Also Photography is about how images look at normal viewing distances either on big prints or screen. Zooming to 100% and saying the plane on pixel level is not perfect sharp is turning photography into a technical fallacy, it was never meant to be. At same “pixel zoom level” (in lack of a better term), I’m sure your 24 and 40 MP images are equally sharp. But yes, you can zoom “deeper” on pixel level with 40 MP. Which still has nothing to do with photography. If that was a criteria, I believe almost all of the most famous images taken in the past century should be deleted and re-recorded (probably with a Sony A something or Nikon D5/D6 - pick your poison). 😊

 

 

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