Interesting opinion piece on the M11, and it’s future implications for the rangefinder

[raizans]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

21 hours ago, adli said:

The Leica M is first and foremost a rangefinder camera. Take away the rangefinder and you have......

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[oldwino]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Isn't this a bit of a yawn piece, rehashing all the arm-chair product designer discussions we had on the subject in this forum over the last decade?

Yes, of course @Jaap, but isn't that the stuff that forums are made of? 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[oldwino]

5 minutes ago, raizans said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Let's not forget the SLR Leicas either!

[M11 for me]

Its a very tricky thing: I own now an M11 for less than 2 days. But with its 60 MPix that nobody really needs its gets tricky (you need it). I realised the following: For the highest dynamic range you should go for binning: Go to Medium DNG. But then there is that cropping function on top: Even though I am in the Medium DNG mode I can Crop to 1,3 or 1,8. And the clue: the camera changes immediately back to full size DNG; this given you get a cropped DNG of more than 30 MPix. That means that with my 21mm lens attached I have at the same time a 32MPix (??) 21mm angle of view (medium dng); but I get as well a 36 MPix (??) 28mm (or nearby) angle of view at 1.3 crop or a 35mm (rather 38mm) angle of view with the 1.8 crop. This is an incredible function. Absolutely great as in the Q2. Now the downside: I am constantly in LV as with the rangefinder I can not see the cropping lines. That is why I strongly believe that the rangefinder is definitely gone over time. Remember: I own the Canon R5 and I could not believe that an EVF was ever for me. Now I have it and I miss nothing, nothing, nothing. Its simply great. Its much better. What I do not know is: An M that would be Messsucherless would work as a marketing concept. I love my M11 but I would prefer an "OVF NM model" (NM = not Messsucher) today. That binning thing together with the cropping option changes quite a lot.

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, M10 for me said:

Its a very tricky thing: I own now an M11 for less than 2 days. But with its 60 MPix that nobody really needs its gets tricky (you need it). I realised the following: For the highest dynamic range you should go for binning: Go to Medium DNG. But then there is that cropping function on top: Even though I am in the Medium DNG mode I can Crop to 1,3 or 1,8. And the clue: the camera changes immediately back to full size DNG; this given you get a cropped DNG of more than 30 MPix. That means that with my 21mm lens attached I have at the same time a 32MPix (??) 21mm angle of view (medium dng); but I get as well a 36 MPix (??) 28mm (or nearby) angle of view at 1.3 crop or a 35mm (rather 38mm) angle of view with the 1.8 crop. This is an incredible function. Absolutely great as in the Q2. Now the downside: I am constantly in LV as with the rangefinder I can not see the cropping lines. That is why I strongly believe that the rangefinder is definitely gone over time. Remember: I own the Canon R5 and I could not believe that an EVF was ever for me. Now I have it and I miss nothing, nothing, nothing. Its simply great. Its much better. What I do not know is: An M that would be Messsucherless would work as a marketing concept. I love my M11 but I would prefer an "OVF NM model" (NM = not Messsucher) today. That binning thing together with the cropping option changes quite a lot.

Some comments:

You do not get better DR with M-DNG than with L-DNG if you resize L-DNG to the M-DNG resolution in post. However, unlike many other cameras, you do not get worse image quality if you use reduced resolution. Therefore, if the resolution of M-DNG is sufficient, it makes sense to use it. The various resolutions make sense to me.

Cropping reduces DR. You are better off changing lenses than cropping. I can see its use in Q2 (helps with framing) but will not use it in M11.

Manual focusing with rangefinder is much quicker and sometimes more precise than with EVF. Therefore, rangefinder FTW :).

[cboy]

6 hours ago, oldwino said:

Let's not forget the SLR Leicas either!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

M11 the modern interpretation is it? Hahaha

[Mahesh]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

15 hours ago, adli said:

 

If Leica made a version of the M-mount camera without rangefinder but only an EVF, there most certainly would be a cry out for autofocus......

 

I would assume the best way to meet this kinds of demands would be to make a Leica Q with interchangeable lenses and brand it something with M in the name for the brand-whores. This type of camera would enter a crowded market though.....

 

 

 

What about the SL line? It is in the crowded market. But is doing well, no? People like Leica for their small lenses and peculiar rendition that you don't get anywhere perhaps other than Pentax. 

[Mahesh]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Some comments:

You do not get better DR with M-DNG than with L-DNG if you resize L-DNG to the M-DNG resolution in post. However, unlike many other cameras, you do not get worse image quality if you use reduced resolution. Therefore, if the resolution of M-DNG is sufficient, it makes sense to use it. The various resolutions make sense to me.

Cropping reduces DR. You are better off changing lenses than cropping. I can see its use in Q2 (helps with framing) but will not use it in M11.

Manual focusing with rangefinder is much quicker and sometimes more precise than with EVF. Therefore, rangefinder FTW :).

Well, for me an EVF is quicker for focussing...your statement does not apply to everyone. 🙂

[SrMi]

Just now, Mahesh said:

Well, for me an EVF is quicker for focussing...your statement does not apply to everyone. 🙂

That is true. Though manual focusing wide-angle lenses with EVF is quite hard to do precisely, isn't it (too much DOF)?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

11 hours ago, SrMi said:

Some comments:

You do not get better DR with M-DNG than with L-DNG if you resize L-DNG to the M-DNG resolution in post. However, unlike many other cameras, you do not get worse image quality if you use reduced resolution. Therefore, if the resolution of M-DNG is sufficient, it makes sense to use it. The various resolutions make sense to me.

Cropping reduces DR. You are better off changing lenses than cropping. I can see its use in Q2 (helps with framing) but will not use it in M11.

Manual focusing with rangefinder is much quicker and sometimes more precise than with EVF. Therefore, rangefinder FTW :).

Are you ssure about that? Cropping reduces resolution but DR is usually measured at the pixel level. DR should remain the same.

MDNG and SDNG effectively make the pixels *bigger* so there's a subtle increase in usable DR due to the lower noaise floor. But the crop modes leave the pixels as they are so no improvements or degredation.

Gordon

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Are you ssure about that? Cropping reduces resolution but DR is usually measured at the pixel level. DR should remain the same.

MDNG and SDNG effectively make the pixels *bigger* so there's a subtle increase in usable DR due to the lower noaise floor. But the crop modes leave the pixels as they are so no improvements or degredation.

Gordon

DR is typically not measured at pixel level (e.g., PhotonsToPhotos and DxO). I do not think it is useful to measure DR at pixel level but at output (same size).

Edited January 22, 2022 by SrMi

[M11 for me]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

Some comments:

You do not get better DR with M-DNG than with L-DNG if you resize L-DNG to the M-DNG resolution in post. However, unlike many other cameras, you do not get worse image quality if you use reduced resolution. Therefore, if the resolution of M-DNG is sufficient, it makes sense to use it. The various resolutions make sense to me.

Cropping reduces DR. You are better off changing lenses than cropping. I can see its use in Q2 (helps with framing) but will not use it in M11.

Manual focusing with rangefinder is much quicker and sometimes more precise than with EVF. Therefore, rangefinder FTW :).

Thanks for your comments. I brought back tons of photos yesterday and I have been out with the 35mm Lux only. I wanted to try out that one lens experience that will include the cropping function 1.3 and 1.8. And it works great. The superb thing: Even though I am in M-DNG when cropping, the camera changes into L-DNG which gives you 1.3 crops at a size of over 30 MPix. So its a great thing when go go out light.

In scientific terms, and protons for photos shows that, we have an excellent sensor, but it is where Nikon was 4 years ago (Sony sensor). And when I compare my images from the same places as I were with the M10 a few weeks ago then I see no blown sky with M10 either and the photos do not look differently (worse) at all even though I compare images where the air (a few weeks ago) was crisp and the contrast high with lots of dark clouds as it was yesterday. So my first experience is not: Wau, what a difference. Its rather: Good progress, good steps in functionality.

I feel:

- Images look good,

- I can do M-DNG

- I have great crop funktion

- I can go out with one lens only if I want to go light

- great new measuring system that allows me to use exposure and ISO both in A-Mode whereas with M10 I always was in Manual mode

- In protons for photos even the M10 does great: Differences of sensors are measurable (its true) but in everiday work they might be minor to not relevant. This is my discussion theses as for now.

- further it has internal memory that serves as backup which is great.

- The new menu is great

So I am not blown away with the M11. I am pleased though.

It seems to me that I made rather a financial transaction: I got good money for the M10; if I would have kept it and sold it in 5 years time to buy an M12 the value of the M10 would be much lower than it is now (probably true). In the past I used to follow the technology any bought the new models and sold the old ones (Canon 5D, 5D ii, 5D iii, 5Div and finally R5. With Leica its M10, M11). So I never have an old camera as backup. 

A last remark here: With the M11 I use the back LCD much more often because of Crop function (you need to look at the creen). So its an important step away from the Messsucher. A step towards an M with EVF. I would never have said this a few weeks ago. 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by M10 for me

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, M10 for me said:

I am not blown away with the M11. I am pleased though.

The M11 reminds me a lot of one of my all time favorite cars I owned back in the '70s, a 1962 356B Super 90. It too, took some time to fully appreciate. Simple pure design, not the fastest, nor best braking. Handled well... up to a point... always ran reliably, impeccable build quality, etc, etc, etc.  Despite a few unique attributes, nothing ground breaking among its many positive qualities. Its genius was only recognized when you added all those things up. It was the high standard achieved across all these attributes and found in a single package that made it so special. 

[M11 for me]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Tailwagger:

The M11 reminds me a lot of one of my all time favorite cars I owned back in the '70s, a 1962 356B Super 90. It too, took some time to fully appreciate. Simple pure design, not the fastest, nor best braking. Handled well... up to a point... always ran reliably, impeccable build quality, etc, etc, etc.  Despite a few unique attributes, nothing ground breaking among its many positive qualities. Its genius was only recognized when you added all those things up. It was the high standard achieved across all these attributes and found in a single package that made it so special. 

Hi Tailwagger, we must be around the same age: In the 70ies I was at university and I worked in the evening and could afford a Citroën 2CV. My giel fried lived over 900km away and I was very often driving to her. Great rememberances. 

However my M11 I start to love. The DNGs look great and very often there is little to do in lightroom. Whereas the highlights or dark areas with the M10 I had to cure with the ruler Highlights resp. Shodows whereas with M11 I rather use a little bit the Blacks or Whites. Of course when going into details of a portrait I end up with dozens of steps with brush etc. But in general the M11 DNGs are much easier to manage in Lightroom.

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, M10 for me said:

I worked in the evening and could afford a Citroën 2CV.

Ah the 2CV. One of those very interesting cars I never got a chance to own. Had a wealthy friend with an SM, but thats about as close as I got.Hard to imagine it was that much cheaper than my Porsche though. I only paid $400 for it, though admittedly it did need a paint job.

[adan]

9 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Its genius was only recognized when you added all those things up. It was the high standard achieved across all these attributes and found in a single package that made it so special. 

That has always been the case for the M system. There were always lighter, or quieter, or smaller, or smoother, or sharper cameras - but not in one package.

[Herr Barnack]

To get back to the original claim for a moment -

Quote

Leica's M11 risks rendering the rangefinder obsolete

My reaction to that is 🙄

Edited February 14, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[idusidusi]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:11 PM, Jeff S said:

Maybe the “puzzle to solved”, as the article raises, will eventually result in two lines of M cameras (or perhaps the second called something else), one for traditional RF users, and another based on EVF.  Hybrid finders seem not to have passed Leica scrutiny. Only time will tell.

Jeff

Hopefully if there is a demand that what will happen, an RF M, and then another model EVF model. If the EVF model did not sell well, it could wither slowly. I hope the RF remains for a long time.