oldwino Posted January 20, 2022 Share #1 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I do not own the M11, nor am I planning on it, but I do have an interest in Leica cameras, their technological advancements, and their connection to the company’s past. Anyone have any thoughts on this? https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/2213667251/leica-s-m11-risks-rendering-the-rangefinder-obsolete?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-january-20&ref_=pe_1822230_621436830_dpr_nl_512_30 Edited January 20, 2022 by oldwino Typos 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 Hi oldwino, Take a look here Interesting opinion piece on the M11, and it’s future implications for the rangefinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted January 20, 2022 Share #2 Posted January 20, 2022 Maybe the “puzzle to solved”, as the article raises, will eventually result in two lines of M cameras (or perhaps the second called something else), one for traditional RF users, and another based on EVF. Hybrid finders seem not to have passed Leica scrutiny. Only time will tell. Jeff 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raizans Posted January 20, 2022 Share #3 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Nice to read that in the context of Mike Johnston’s article on how people like Leica, but not so much rangefinders: https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2018/06/people-dont-like-rangefinders.html Does anyone else find the term “shooting experience” inadequate to refer to the photographic techniques and working methods that different technologies facilitate and allow? Edited January 20, 2022 by raizans 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted January 20, 2022 Share #4 Posted January 20, 2022 I think this part of the article actually sums it up quite nicely: "We've always resisted retroactively redefining rangefinders as mirrorless cameras because the shooting experience and mode of operating is so different. But this distinction becomes blurry once you turn away from the rangefinder mechanism that makes them distinctive and use live view: you risk effectively turning the M11 into a mirrorless camera with really rather disappointing autofocus." The Leica M is first and foremost a rangefinder camera. Take away the rangefinder and you have...... 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted January 20, 2022 Share #5 Posted January 20, 2022 …a camera? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abphoto Posted January 20, 2022 Share #6 Posted January 20, 2022 Heres an interesting piece by Meyerowitz. about 1:20 in to point but the entire piece is good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xumo7_JUeMo&t=98s 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 20, 2022 Share #7 Posted January 20, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 52 minutes ago, adli said: I think this part of the article actually sums it up quite nicely: "We've always resisted retroactively redefining rangefinders as mirrorless cameras because the shooting experience and mode of operating is so different. But this distinction becomes blurry once you turn away from the rangefinder mechanism that makes them distinctive and use live view: you risk effectively turning the M11 into a mirrorless camera with really rather disappointing autofocus." The Leica M is first and foremost a rangefinder camera. Take away the rangefinder and you have...... Leica has said that the M baseline is always yo stay a true rangefinder camera, and try to add new possibilities so that the heart and the core are not disturbed. IMO, they have succeeded with M11. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 20, 2022 Share #8 Posted January 20, 2022 I don't think the RF is going anywhere but there are more and more calls for an EVF M. The M11 is Leicas first toe in the pool look at doing that. The M11 is basically a proof of concept that an EVF M camera is possible and people's reaction to the M11 may have an influence on whether that becomes a reality. It was really the Q that started this. It's MF functionality is really good. Now it looks like the M11 will get close to that. Will an EVF M make the rangefinder obselete. Absolutely not. It's completely unique in the digital world. But so would be an EVF manual focus only camera. There's a group who want a MF camera but don't have the eyes for an M. So far the add on EVF hasn't really been a substitute. An EVF M would be for them. I would not be surprised if we see an M11EV at all. Actually I think maybe a M11M-EV might be first. But the RF will stay. Every brand needs a halo product. Gordon 7 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cboy Posted January 20, 2022 Share #9 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Stayed true to the point wherein they just left the rangefinder alone and not even incorporated it to the new digital workflow experience of the M11... In regards to the variable crop the M11 was made with the use of digital evf and liveview in mind not the rangefinder. Not even cropped framelines in the rangefinder has been incorporated. Sure there's close enough framelines that can be passed off, but such a premium product deserves more scrutiny. Edited January 20, 2022 by cboy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted January 20, 2022 Share #10 Posted January 20, 2022 With the current rangefinder technology it would have been impossible to add frame lines for the cropped modes. The frame lines are generated with a fixed metal mask. As I have written in the thread about a possible M12, I would like the frame lines generated digitally, then the lines could adjust to the crop modes easily. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldwino Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share #11 Posted January 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, -ph- said: With the current rangefinder technology it would have been impossible to add frame lines for the cropped modes. The frame lines are generated with a fixed metal mask. As I have written in the thread about a possible M12, I would like the frame lines generated digitally, then the lines could adjust to the crop modes easily. It's interesting that there is not a digital rangefinder system in a camera. I'm sure Leica have explored this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted January 20, 2022 Share #12 Posted January 20, 2022 Well, there is something they need to be able to later M models The M11 is a great showcase for how Leica tries to improve the cameras and they did achieve a lot with the M11. I am quite looking forward to what Leica can do in the future! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted January 20, 2022 Share #13 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: Actually I think maybe a M11M-EV might be first. When I read this, I nearly fainted. That would be the balls, AFAIC. 22 minutes ago, oldwino said: It's interesting that there is not a digital rangefinder system in a camera. I'd argue that the M11 is in a very real sense already there, though sans the RF patch or potential fast focusing aids. It implements the M8 version of a digital RF, not a true full frame, but if you select digital zoom, the EVF displays classic frame lines atop the full 60Mpx image. So you see outside the actual frame, just like the OVF. [EDIT] Here's what I'm talking about... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 20, 2022 by Tailwagger 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328777-interesting-opinion-piece-on-the-m11-and-it%E2%80%99s-future-implications-for-the-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4362840'>More sharing options...
raizans Posted January 20, 2022 Share #14 Posted January 20, 2022 How do people feel about the M series diversifying into two lines: 1. Rangefinder camera, “standard” resolution, e.g., 36mp. 2. EVF camera, high resolution, 60mp+. To my eyes, Leica is spreading the M11 rather thin by trying to cover all of the bases with just one form factor. The triple resolution feature and improved Visoflex help but only go so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgh Posted January 21, 2022 Share #15 Posted January 21, 2022 I would be fine with it. Personally, I am more concerned with high IQ in a compact body that is still a good ergonomic fit. If the M's replaced a screen instead of the RF and it worked well and focusing was responsive then I could get into it. I don't have much sentimental attachment to the old way - in fact I will happily leave the old way once a new way makes something easier or more seamless - but not needlessly complicated. Leica's been a decent (but not perfect) judge of that so far. The M11 doesn't seem spread thing (at least from what I've seen) if all of this stuff is easy to implement. By that logic a lot of other cameras are doing way too much - but in reality a more versatile tool isn't necessarily a negative if it still does the fundamentals well. There will probably be a point (maybe they've already been there) at which Leica feels held hostage by folks resistant to change (who also tend to have more money) and they will have to piss off some people to stay viable and pick up some new customers along the way. I wouldn't want to be on an M design team because trying to satisfy the myriad of emotional attachments people have to this or that with an upgrade would be grounds for losing your mind. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 21, 2022 Share #16 Posted January 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, pgh said: I would be fine with it. Personally, I am more concerned with high IQ in a compact body that is still a good ergonomic fit. If the M's replaced a screen instead of the RF and it worked well and focusing was responsive then I could get into it. I don't have much sentimental attachment to the old way - in fact I will happily leave the old way once a new way makes something easier or more seamless - but not needlessly complicated. Leica's been a decent (but not perfect) judge of that so far. The M11 doesn't seem spread thing (at least from what I've seen) if all of this stuff is easy to implement. By that logic a lot of other cameras are doing way too much - but in reality a more versatile tool isn't necessarily a negative if it still does the fundamentals well. There will probably be a point (maybe they've already been there) at which Leica feels held hostage by folks resistant to change (who also tend to have more money) and they will have to piss off some people to stay viable and pick up some new customers along the way. I wouldn't want to be on an M design team because trying to satisfy the myriad of emotional attachments people have to this or that with an upgrade would be grounds for losing your mind. Regarding M, Leica has said that their baseline (cast in stone) is always to stay a true rangefinder camera and try to add new possibilities so that the heart and the core are not disturbed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 21, 2022 Share #17 Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, SrMi said: Regarding M, Leica has said that their baseline (cast in stone) is always to stay a true rangefinder camera and try to add new possibilities so that the heart and the core are not disturbed. How about an E11 then? Or V11 (visoflex)? M lenses. EVF. But not M. Gordon Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 21, 2022 Share #18 Posted January 21, 2022 Post #2 Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 21, 2022 Share #19 Posted January 21, 2022 56 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said: How about an E11 then? Or V11 (visoflex)? M lenses. EVF. But not M. Gordon I think an E11 would entice more people to switch to Leica, though I would prefer a solution with a tiltable EVF. Have you seen the size of GFX's tiltable EVF? It's a monster compared to Visoflex 2, and I did not notice that it is much better (though it could tilt in one more axis). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
opera207 Posted January 21, 2022 Share #20 Posted January 21, 2022 There is a solution, fuji's hybrid evf/ovf, which is a very good experience on x100v/x pro 3. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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