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Interesting opinion piece on the M11, and it’s future implications for the rangefinder


oldwino

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1 hour ago, opera207 said:

There is a solution, fuji's hybrid evf/ovf, which is a very good experience on x100v/x pro 3.

It is not a rangefinder and to make it as bright as Leica's OVF, they had to change the magnification (0.52x instead of 0.36x/.60x). 28 mm equivalent cannot be used with X-Pro3's OVF any longer (18mm in APS-C world).

Edited by SrMi
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If Leica made a version of the M-mount camera without rangefinder but only an EVF, there most certainly would be a cry out for autofocus......

 

I would assume the best way to meet this kinds of demands would be to make a Leica Q with interchangeable lenses and brand it something with M in the name for the brand-whores. This type of camera would enter a crowded market though.....

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, -ph- said:

With the current rangefinder technology it would have been impossible to add frame lines for the cropped modes. The frame lines are generated with a fixed metal mask. As I have written in the thread about a possible M12, I would like the frame lines generated digitally, then the lines could adjust to the crop modes easily.

I also suggested in the big M11 thread that replacing the Led+metal plate+frameline level mechanical system with a mini oled screen + digital coupling. This will sure open up a lot of possibilities for the camera.

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11 hours ago, -ph- said:

 I would like the frame lines generated digitally, then the lines could adjust to the crop modes easily.

Then it's about time they innovate... Seriously is it that difficult to put electronic/digital overlays like the xpro/x100 series? Im not even suggesting a digital/electronic rangefinder patch or an evf (heaven forbid I might incur the rath of the Leica gods)... Just an digital/electronic overlays. Just so that the old tech in the M keeps up with the new tech. Rather than changing ones shooting experience just for the new tech??? 

I came to the M to get away from the evf. One step at a time Leica. I'll probably dead and buried before an evf M comes along😆

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Edited by cboy
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19 hours ago, oldwino said:

I do not own the M11, nor am I planning on it,  but I do have an interest in Leica cameras, their technological advancements, and their connection to the company’s past. Anyone have any thoughts on this? 

https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/2213667251/leica-s-m11-risks-rendering-the-rangefinder-obsolete?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-january-20&ref_=pe_1822230_621436830_dpr_nl_512_30

Isn't this a bit of a yawn piece, rehashing all the arm-chair product designer discussions we had on the subject in this forum over the last decade?

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I would be happy with the M-line splitting between a no-compromises traditional rangefinder with OVF and a version with EVF and other electronic enhancements. There's a risk with the M11 (no traditional metering or shutter operation, multiple resolutions and formats) of losing the simplicity and speed of operation that many here value (including myself), while not satisfying those who want a small high quality MILC.

If the CL is going to be terminated, all those who want that sort of camera (also including me) have nowhere obvious to migrate to in Leica-land. We sometimes forget that what Leica has developed in the digital camera world is another important skill (alongside lens and body design): designing a simple intuitive interface that gets out of the way and lets you just take photographs. An E-version of the M could provide that without wrecking the traditional M.

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1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If the CL is going to be terminated, all those who want that sort of camera (also including me) have nowhere obvious to migrate to in Leica-land.

Exactly, and it appears to me that loss of customer base could well be more expensive in the long run than disappointing short-term revenue (if that is the case for the CL, I'm not convinced) .

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My first Leica was a hand-me-down M3. Since then I have owned an M8, M9-P and now an M10-P. While the features improved with each generation, the rangefinder experience was timeless and made me a better photographer.

I am sure there are many like me who want to experience this at an early age. However rangefinders are not made by many vendors. Leica makes them but the acquisition cost is high.

If prices are right, rangefinder cameras can go a long way.

I still feel that Leica should reintroduce the M8 as a 'no-frills rangefinder' with its crop sensor (maybe digital crop) but at a lower price point using newer materials and made in lower cost countries. They can even do this in partnership with another manufacturer. There are many inexpensive M lenses in the market today that can be paired with such cameras.

 

 

Edited by rramesh
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10 hours ago, SrMi said:

Regarding M, Leica has said that their baseline (cast in stone) is always to stay a true rangefinder camera and try to add new possibilities so that the heart and the core are not disturbed.

Yea, I don't think anything in business is every truly cast in stone. It could be the rangefinder stays a good move going forward and the M may have a long life ahead of it but nothing is forever, especially not for a modern adaptive business. 

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16 hours ago, -ph- said:

With the current rangefinder technology it would have been impossible to add frame lines for the cropped modes. The frame lines are generated with a fixed metal mask. As I have written in the thread about a possible M12, I would like the frame lines generated digitally, then the lines could adjust to the crop modes easily.

Fuji did exactly that with the X100 and X-Pro series. In fact, they can overlay a split-image rangefinder patch (drawn from the phase-detect sensors on the sensor) over an optical viewfinder picture - or switch to full EVF. But Leica probably doesn't have licensing for the Fuji hybrid VF.

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3 hours ago, rramesh said:

I still feel that Leica should reintroduce the M8 as a 'no-frills rangefinder' with its crop sensor (maybe digital crop) but at a lower price point using newer materials and made in lower cost countries. They can even do this in partnership with another manufacturer. There are many inexpensive M lenses in the market today that can be paired with such cameras.

You mean the Pixii?

https://pixii.fr

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1 hour ago, dante said:

Fuji did exactly that with the X100 and X-Pro series. In fact, they can overlay a split-image rangefinder patch (drawn from the phase-detect sensors on the sensor) over an optical viewfinder picture - or switch to full EVF. But Leica probably doesn't have licensing for the Fuji hybrid VF.

The Fuji cameras don’t have a rangefinder, so the challenges and standards are reduced. Leica experimented with hybrid viewing, RF and EVF, but that resulted in unacceptable compromises to both, given Leica standards.

Jeff

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The beauty of the M11 is that you don't have to choose.  You can use the rangefinder and it works great—in my hands, slightly faster to focus and just as accurate for most lenses as the Visoflex 2.  But for lenses and situations that aren't rangefinder-friendly, such as:

- Not enough light to see the rangefinder patch well

- Lens is too wide for the optical viewfinder, making accurate framing impossible

- Focal plane is too thin to focus accurately 

- Lack of rangefinder-friendly visuals to give high-confidence focusing (subjects with repeating patterns, or subjects that lack visible lines that allow accurate rangefinder focusing)

...then the EVF with its high-magnification view and focus peaking are clearly a better way of focusing.

Within the manual-focus 36x24 mm world, the M11 is pretty close to a no-compromises camera in my opinion.

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I think the M/rangefinder Is a bit like jazz… If somebody has to explain it to you, you’re never gonna get it. And I don’t think DP Review has EVER gotten it.

Why does everything have to be the same? Why does everything have to be whittled down and perfect according to some panel of reviewers? There are plenty of whiz bang techno marvel cameras coming out almost every week it seems. Let the M be the M!

I think some of these reviewers want everything to be like that twilight zone episode where everyone has pig faces and this one beautiful girl is looked at as ugly, so she has surgery to get a pig face too. 

The M is a beautiful imperfect wonderful thing, and long may it reign.

 

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Edited by trickness
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5 minutes ago, trickness said:

I think some of these reviewers want everything to be like that twilight zone episode where everyone has pig faces and this one beautiful girl is looked at as ugly, so she has surgery to get a pig face too. And then all the other pig faces accept her.

 

 

Not exactly.  Her surgery failed, and she eventually was exiled to a place with other ugly (beautiful to us) residents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(The_Twilight_Zone,_1959)
 

Jeff

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vor 18 Stunden schrieb cboy:

In regards to the variable crop the M11 was made with the use of digital evf and liveview in mind not the rangefinder. Not even cropped framelines in the rangefinder has been incorporated. Sure there's close enough framelines that can be passed off, but such a premium product deserves more scrutiny.

Which variable crop are you talking about? The variable DNG size output which the M11 offers does not result in any crop. Irrespective of the MP output selected, you will still have full 24x36mm format.

 

vor 9 Stunden schrieb opera207:

There is a solution, fuji's hybrid evf/ovf, which is a very good experience on x100v/x pro 3.

Well, that doesn't include a rangefinder. Which is, at least in my view, the core element of a Leica M camera.

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1 minute ago, wizard said:

Which variable crop are you talking about? The variable DNG size output which the M11 offers does not result in any crop. Irrespective of the MP output selected, you will still have full 24x36mm format.

there are 2 digital crop option on the M11, similar to Q2. DNG stays the same JEPG is smaller

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22 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Not exactly.  Her surgery failed, and she eventually was exiled to a place with other ugly (beautiful to us) residents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(The_Twilight_Zone,_1959)
 

Jeff

You're right! I had a false memory of what happened to her - the fact that she remains beautiful is a better analogy I think 🐽

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