Light Lens Lab Elcan 50mm f2 Review

[shirubadanieru]

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7 minutes ago, Fred Miranda said:

Thanks for your insights on this lens. Is the 50/2 rigid sharper away from center wide open? Also in your experience, how their field curvature shape compare?

Hi : ) It's been a while since I've owned both lenses, so it's a bit hard to answer. To me the biggest pros VS rigid were:

• Bokeh is quite beautiful (not that the rigid isn't, but I think the Elcan has quite an interesting OOF rendering that is quite different from other f2 lenses
• Half the size of the Summicron Rigid
• 0.7m VS 1m MFD

 

In terms of center sharpness, I would say they are fairly equal, but in terms of sharpness away from the center I can't quite remember which one performed better  I know that I was never disappointed with either for landscapes for example, from f4 and beyond. Sorry I can't be of more help, but hopefully someone with both lenses can answer. 

[Fred Miranda]

9 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Hi : ) It's been a while since I've owned both lenses, so it's a bit hard to answer. To me the biggest pros VS rigid were:

• Bokeh is quite beautiful (not that the rigid isn't, but I think the Elcan has quite an interesting OOF rendering that is quite different from other f2 lenses
• Half the size of the Summicron Rigid
• 0.7m VS 1m MFD

 

In terms of center sharpness, I would say they are fairly equal, but in terms of sharpness away from the center I can't quite remember which one performed better  I know that I was never disappointed with either for landscapes for example, from f4 and beyond. Sorry I can't be of more help, but hopefully someone with both lenses can answer. 

Thanks for the info. I am curious about the resolution 'fall off' characteristics from these lenses because from what I've read, the Elcan seems to be sharp only at center. I never tried the 50/2 Rigid but wonder how they would compare. Field curvature shape differences plays a role as well.

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[pippy]

9 minutes ago, Fred Miranda said:

Thanks for the info. I am curious about the resolution 'fall off' characteristics from these lenses because from what I've read, the Elcan seems to be sharp only at center. I never tried the 50/2 Rigid but wonder how they would compare. Field curvature shape differences plays a role as well.

I strongly suspect that you have already read through the whole of this thread and noted various comments which have been made along the way but just in case you haven't - or else might have missed it - this is what Dr. Mandler (who oversaw the 50mm ELCAN design) had to say, in very general terms, with regards its optical performance in comparison to a couple of other Leitz 50mm f2 lenses;

"The performance specifications did not require the image quality offered by the 5cm f2 Summicron......In image quality I would place it between the 5cm f2 Summitar and the first Summicron (or Summitar*).  The lens type that we have used is overstrained as far as field coverage goes."

It doesn't address your specific queries, I know, but it does suggest that not only did he rate the ELCAN below the Summicron Rigid he also placed it below the Type 1 collapsible.

Philip.

[hdmesa]

34 minutes ago, pippy said:

...The lens type that we have used is overstrained as far as field coverage goes...

Is he saying the Elcan image circle is a bit smaller compared to the the others? If so, I can't see the edges on the Elcan ever becoming over-sharp relative to the center. 

[pippy]

32 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Is he saying the Elcan image circle is a bit smaller compared to the the others? If so, I can't see the edges on the Elcan ever becoming over-sharp relative to the center. 

I believe the covering-power of the Summicron wasn't demed neccessary for the ELCAN so that might well have been one part of - but not the full - story.

The ELCAN uses a much simplified optical design of four elements in four groups (compared with the 7/6 of the v1 / v2 Summicron or 6/4 of the v3 - v5). This rather unusual layout was chosen in order that there would be no cemented groups because (apparently) the design chosen would be more reliable / durable in the extreme conditions which might be encountered in use. One aspect of this solution, of course, was that aberrations were not corrected anywhere near as fully as on the Summicron lenses.

Annoyingly I can no longer find the passage written by Dr. Mandler from which my quotation was taken. I seem to remember that there was a little more about the ELCAN but can't quite recall what it was. If I find it and there is anything of note I will let you know.

Philip.

[Fred Miranda]

5 hours ago, pippy said:

I strongly suspect that you have already read through the whole of this thread and noted various comments which have been made along the way but just in case you haven't - or else might have missed it - this is what Dr. Mandler (who oversaw the 50mm ELCAN design) had to say, in very general terms, with regards its optical performance in comparison to a couple of other Leitz 50mm f2 lenses;

"The performance specifications did not require the image quality offered by the 5cm f2 Summicron......In image quality I would place it between the 5cm f2 Summitar and the first Summicron (or Summitar*).  The lens type that we have used is overstrained as far as field coverage goes."

It doesn't address your specific queries, I know, but it does suggest that not only did he rate the ELCAN below the Summicron Rigid he also placed it below the Type 1 collapsible.

Philip.

Thanks for the info Philip.

I really like the Elcan's rendering (even more than the Rigid due to the lower optical vignetting, less swirl). None of these lenses are 'sharp' in modern terms but the center area seems to be sharp enough for my taste for either lens. I was just wondering about the performance off-axis and FC between the Elcan and Rigid. I just got a Elcan loan to try it out.

Thanks for the info guys!

Edited January 10, 2023 by Fred Miranda

[pippy]

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2 hours ago, Fred Miranda said:

...I really like the Elcan's rendering......None of these lenses are 'sharp' in modern terms but the center area seems to be sharp enough for my taste for either lens. I was just wondering about the performance off-axis and FC between the Elcan and Rigid. I just got a Elcan loan to try it out...

Do you mean an original ELCAN, Fred, or the LLL re-creation?

Either way I, for one, will be interested to read your thoughts as far as rendering etc. are concerned. As I stated in an earlier post in this thread (#20) the very latest in Optical Perfection isn't exactly high up on my Must-Have list and the LLL ELCAN has been an attractive option to me since I first read the OP here. For me I suspect that it might sit half-way between my '53 f1.5 Summarit and my v4 Summicron and as such wouldn't be duplicating the rendring provided by either of these lenses.

And I do love the compact size very much!

Philip.

[shirubadanieru]

PS - I had the Summar / Summitar and the Elcan LLL and there is no way it's between those lenses performance wise. The Elcan is way way waaaaaaaay sharper than those two wide open. 

Looking forward to your thoughts as well Fred! 

[Harout62]

The Elcan LLL is smack dab in the middle of the V3 and V4. Summicrons  it’s as sharp as the V4. In the centre to about the 10 mill  mark 

and loses the corners.  However it does not flare as much as the Summicron lenses 

[pippy]

9 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

PS - I had the Summar / Summitar and the Elcan LLL and there is no way it's between those lenses performance wise...

No-one has suggested anything to the contrary, Shirubadanieru.

Dr. Mandler didn't mention the Summar at all. To repeat the gist of what was written earlier; he talked about the Summitar and the Summicron (the prototypes of which carried the Summitar* designation) and stated that the IQ of the ELCAN was superior to that of the Summitar but below the Summicron.

Philip.

Edited January 11, 2023 by pippy

[red snapper]

All really interesting.

Like many on here am fascinated by these old lenses, recently bought a 1935 vintage 50mm Summaron and post war 1940's 90mm Elmar.

As I no longer have any film bodies those two lenses will be used on the M240/262 which are my current working cameras, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Am currently looking at the TTartisans 28mm f5.6 which is reasonably priced for what it is and available on Amazon Prime but am unable to find a UK source for the LLL lenses.

Does anybody know where I can find them without having to order from abroad? They are already expensive enough without the customs charges and taxes not to mention delays. 

 

[muju79]

Always interested in "new" 50mm options but the barrel distortion is way too much for my taste, I'll pass. Thanks for the interesting discussion though.

[pippy]

10 hours ago, red snapper said:

...(I) am unable to find a UK source for the LLL lenses. Does anybody know where I can find them without having to order from abroad? They are already expensive enough without the customs charges and taxes not to mention delays.

I've never seen anyone in the UK with new stocks of LLL lenses and with my recent exchange with the LLL Dealer in the USA there was no mention of this situation changing anytime soon. Unfortunately for us in the UK personal importation seems to be the only option for the forseeable future.

Philip.

[ocean2059]

I had the lens for about a year and I really like it. I took it out for a morning walk around a local lake today (M9M).

 

 

 

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[ocean2059]

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[red snapper]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:38 PM, pippy said:

I've never seen anyone in the UK with new stocks of LLL lenses and with my recent exchange with the LLL Dealer in the USA there was no mention of this situation changing anytime soon. Unfortunately for us in the UK personal importation seems to be the only option for the forseeable future.

Philip.

There are quite a few online dealers hard to decide which one to buy from.

Any recommendations which ones are best for price, quality of service and speed of delivery to the UK?

 

[pippy]

57 minutes ago, red snapper said:

There are quite a few online dealers hard to decide which one to buy from.......Any recommendations which ones are best for price, quality of service and speed of delivery to the UK?

Unfortunately I can't offer you any words of advice.

I only managed to acquire my 8-Element - here in London - through pure chance. It, packaged along with the matching LLL Black-Paint IROOA, was advertised in one of the regular dealerships and I was quick enough to grab it whilst the grabbing was good. I have a strong suspicion that it was a review / test sample. When bought it was in absolutely mint condition. Having seen how little it takes to mark the Black-Paint of the lens in the area where the hoods affixes I doubt that the hood had ever been used with the lens and I doubt that the lens had seen much use at all...

I've never seen another LLL lens of any type advertised through any of 'the usual suspects' but, then again, I've not exactly been on the hunt so that's hardly conclusive.

I would dearly love to see LLL set up an official UK source. Importing kit such as this from overseas can incur considerable expense depending on how it has been declared / described and from where it has been bought. I learned my lesson a couple of years ago when I bought an item (a lens) from Japan. The levies due to VAT, Import Duty and Handling Charges added over 50% to the initial purchase price.

If it is of any help I was in touch with North American distributor for LLL in the USA with regard to their upcoming 50mm f1.2 'Noctilux' re-creation(*) and here's our correspondence concerning what he had to say regarding personal importation of previously offered lenses to the UK from the USA;

"Regarding shipping. Yes, the Tax is included if you are located in the UK, and we will try our best to avoid any shipping charges/custom fees..."

Having asked for specific clarification I......received a further message which states;

"...I sent multiple lenses to customers in the United Kingdom.........in 2021/2022. I have not heard anything regarding any extra cost with customs/import duties/VAT from the customer's end with my shipping logistics. The price (quoted for the lens about which I was enquiring) includes shipping, taxes and import duties..."

I'm not sure where that leaves us. I find myself very tempted by the ELCAN as I suspect it would be a perfect alternative to my v4 Summicron and I'm even more tempted by the 'in the works' Noctilux but unless I can be given better guarantees that my £2,100 purchase wouldn't end up costing me £3,150......

A UK dealer / handler would be wonderful but, looking at the situation from the position of LLL, would there be sufficient demand to justify having an agent here?

To me it does seem like LLL are missing a trick. I'm pretty sure there are many Leica users in the UK who would love their products if given the chance to see what superb lenses they are but without word-of-mouth recommendations and with no chance to try-out the lenses for themselves I fear that no-one here will give their products much thought.

Philip.

* Here; just in case you missed it; https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/359372-light-lens-labs-50mm-12-interesting/#comments

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by pippy

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[shirubadanieru]

Just FYI, mapcamera here in Japan sells both the 8e and the Elcan LLL, so it’s very easy to purchase them here through an official Leica 3rd party seller. I think in Europe there’s Jo Geier? I remember seeing the 8e there, not sure about the Elcan though…either way, both are amazing lenses, super well built…Elcan is so tiny it’s wonderful for a 50mm, the only annoyance is that aperture works in the opposite way as all other Leica lenses (as did the original).