adan Posted February 21, 2022 Share #61 Posted February 21, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 2/18/2022 at 1:25 AM, shirubadanieru said: Interesting that the color / sharpness / pop is fairly similar, but the bokeh shape is very different (Elcan is rounder) Sure - the Elcan is a shorter tube, and thus has less optical vignetting in the corners (blockage of light by the lens barrel itself), and thus less cat's-eye bokeh. See pages 2-3 of this .pdf: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sensing-sensors/readings/vignetting.pdf Although finding two lenses of matched focal length and aperture that show the effect so clearly is not that common - so thanks for the posts. .................... As to lens designs: they can be patented, but the patents expire pretty rapidly, or can be avoided by even small changes in a curvature, thickness or glass type. Leitz themselves "ripped off" the Zeiss Tessar formula, for the original Leica 50mm/35mm Elmars. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2022 Posted February 21, 2022 Hi adan, Take a look here Light Lens Lab Elcan 50mm f2 Review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
shirubadanieru Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share #62 Posted February 21, 2022 15 minutes ago, adan said: Sure - the Elcan is a shorter tube, and thus has less optical vignetting in the corners (blockage of light by the lens barrel itself), and thus less cat's-eye bokeh. See pages 2-3 of this .pdf: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sensing-sensors/readings/vignetting.pdf Although finding two lenses of matched focal length and aperture that show the effect so clearly is not that common - so thanks for the posts. .................... As to lens designs: they can be patented, but the patents expire pretty rapidly, or can be avoided by even small changes in a curvature, thickness or glass type. Leitz themselves "ripped off" the Zeiss Tessar formula, for the original Leica 50mm/35mm Elmars. Interesting, thank you for sharing! Indeed the bokeh shape is much more circular and the lens does flare less than the rigid (hard to know if it's because of a age of lens / condition of coating or because of a lens design since they were built 50y apart. Yeah, the Leica patents I believe are expired that's why LLL was able to reverse engineer these old designs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 21, 2022 Share #63 Posted February 21, 2022 10 hours ago, tsleica said: No......Its a great deal at discount..which is what I got from my dealer...if you want the connection..PM me......The rip off part comes..from LLL... rippin off Leicas designs.. Ah! I see what you mean now, tsleica! Yes; it's an interesting development and one which I doubt anyone would genuinely have thought likely to happen given the extraordinary complexities of the process which LLL has duly undertaken... The 'rights and wrongs' of copying an existing design can make for an interesting discussion. In many cases nowadays it's a fairly clear-cut situation as many unscrupulous companies are clearly manufacturing counterfeit goods which are intended to dupe the buying public into buying counterfeit goods. Other times - such as in the luxury watch market - companies are copying 'real' goods which are still currently in production but selling them at such low prices that no-one could really be in any doubt as to whether the goods they are buying is the genuine article. In the case of the offerings from LLL, however, there is a very large difference in 'ethical terms' (IMO) which is that the ELCAN and the "8 Element" before it recreate lenses which have not been produced for over 50 years so there is obviously no intention to pass these off as the original items. The lenses (and the 'IROOA' hood) are also clearly branded as being manufactured by LLL and the country of origin is also very clearly engraved on all objects. In fact from what I've seen, having looked at quite a few photographs of the 8-E, it appears that LLL has engineered the front ring in such a fashion to ensure the word 'CHINA' is always positioned 'top-centre' when the lens is mounted on a body. As the copyrights / patents for these lenses have expired there is absolutely no reason why any company cannot do exactly what LLL has done; the question any manufacturer WOULD have to ask themselves, of course, is; "Will there be a sufficient number of actual purchasers for such lenses were they to be made in order for us to make a profit?"... I sincerely hope that the answer to that question is a resounding "Yes!". What LLL has achieved in creating re-engineering these lenses from scratch really is quite remarkable. Philip. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted February 25, 2022 Share #64 Posted February 25, 2022 Also read somewhere that the diameter of the lens elements are marginally different so parts from an LLL cannot be used on a Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B0tt0mline Posted March 11, 2022 Share #65 Posted March 11, 2022 Where could I get the lens at the moment in Europe? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B0tt0mline Posted March 15, 2022 Share #66 Posted March 15, 2022 Please help me Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted March 15, 2022 Share #67 Posted March 15, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 47 minutes ago, B0tt0mline said: Please help me Ebay has several for sale right now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 15, 2022 Share #68 Posted March 15, 2022 3 hours ago, B0tt0mline said: Where could I get the lens at the moment in Europe?......Please help me Nowhere. AFAIK there are no dealerships for 'new stock' LLL lenses in Europe. Your only real option is to buy from China / Hong Kong / Similar. Philip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James24 Posted March 16, 2022 Share #69 Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/11/2022 at 1:35 PM, B0tt0mline said: Where could I get the lens at the moment in Europe? Thanks One here:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115287447677 Personally I would go abroad for a copy.... I bought my LLL 35mm from these guys https://www.facebook.com/shcameras/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasdfg Posted March 17, 2022 Share #70 Posted March 17, 2022 I just picked up this lens and the 35 cron v1 "replica", and I'm more enamoured by the 50mm f2 Elcan - it's a more interesting lens (maybe fed by the fact the actual lens it is based on is mythical). Both are built really well, which is really the most impressive thing about them. Everything just feels right. I'll post pics by the Elcan when I can as I haven't had the time to shoot since I got the LLL lenses (also, with 2 new lenses I'm spoilt). Preliminary, the corners are a bit too soft for my liking (i haven't tested it enough to know when they sharpen up enough), but I see this as a street-sy portrait lens so in practice the corners don't matter. It's so small and I quite like the bokeh. The centre is plenty sharp. That said, when you put the Elcan's images side by side against the cron Rigid or the cron v4 like @shirubadanieru and JCH did, I do prefer the Leicas. Thankfully, I don't have any Leica pre-asph crons to compare it against (and I don't do side by side testing anyway). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorda@ Posted May 14, 2022 Share #71 Posted May 14, 2022 Thanks shirubadanieru for the review! A nice lens i just received! The size is perfect Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327789-light-lens-lab-elcan-50mm-f2-review/?do=findComment&comment=4435025'>More sharing options...
Ecar Posted May 15, 2022 Share #72 Posted May 15, 2022 First of all, thanks to @shirubadanieru for the short but informative review and for starting this thread. I only managed to play with my BP copy for a short time last week, so my very first impressions are to be taken with a big pinch of salt. In a nutshell: I had somewhat higher expectations (possibly fed by the hype surrounding the original, which I have never used - and probably never will), mostly in the overall "rendering / character" department. What has been written above is entirely accurate - well built, small, sharp in the center, flare-resistant, predictable, etc. - but, to my eyes, the results are a bit underwhelming. Hard to pinpoint why exactly, but I'd pick the Rigid over the V2LC (its official name) without hesitation in most circumstances. I'm planning to use it more over the summer in a variety of settings, so will report back if it gets me more excited. A few shots below on the M10P, taken between f/2 and f/4 during my first (and so far, only) outing with the lens, without 'chasing bokeh'... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327789-light-lens-lab-elcan-50mm-f2-review/?do=findComment&comment=4435237'>More sharing options...
pgk Posted May 15, 2022 Share #73 Posted May 15, 2022 On 2/21/2022 at 5:12 AM, adan said: As to lens designs: they can be patented, but the patents expire pretty rapidly, or can be avoided by even small changes in a curvature, thickness or glass type. Leitz themselves "ripped off" the Zeiss Tessar formula, for the original Leica 50mm/35mm Elmars. FWIW my father worked for an engineering company back in the 1960s. This company had a small 'patent breaking department' whose job it was to check on any relevant, existant patents which affected the company, with a view to 'breaking' them by showing that they did not fulfil the requirements needed to either obtain (pat. pend.) or apply a patent. My guess is that lens designs would be very difficult to enforce because most will be dreivative of an previous and expired patent one way or another. And as stated patents also expire and would need potentially costly enforcement action for potentially little return in a case like the Elcan lens. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMF Posted June 23, 2022 Share #74 Posted June 23, 2022 Hi all, just tested my black paint sample and I'm quite pleased with iits rendering. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 11 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327789-light-lens-lab-elcan-50mm-f2-review/?do=findComment&comment=4458834'>More sharing options...
JMF Posted June 23, 2022 Share #75 Posted June 23, 2022 A couple more shots still taken on a M10-P Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327789-light-lens-lab-elcan-50mm-f2-review/?do=findComment&comment=4458835'>More sharing options...
alphonse2501 Posted September 21, 2022 Share #76 Posted September 21, 2022 When did Popflash Photo becomes distributor of LLL? They are selling not only ELCAN 50 but also 35mm f2 eight elements (rigid and collapsible). https://www.popflash.com/light-lens-lab/ No need Ebay for Chinese/HK seller! (Although Popflash Photo has their own Ebay store.) 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorda@ Posted November 9, 2022 Share #77 Posted November 9, 2022 Hey guys, if someone is looking for an Elcan replica, I have one to try in Europe! Pretty cool and compact lens! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #78 Posted November 12, 2022 I'd put it in the same league rendering wise as the cron rigid but with half the length & 0.7m MFD. Those are the advantages. Such a small f2 lens! The aperture turning opposite to all other Leica lenses is annoying though, but that's how the original lens was as well. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted November 12, 2022 Share #79 Posted November 12, 2022 (edited) A nice compact 50. I like the mechanics. It's not a dog. If you are a pixel peeper..well..Sigma Art is pretty nice.. Edited November 12, 2022 by tsleica 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Miranda Posted January 10, 2023 Share #80 Posted January 10, 2023 On 12/25/2021 at 4:04 AM, shirubadanieru said: Yes, the elcan history is interesting & I've read everything that's available online about it (not a lot ahah). Just using it for a day though, I can say with confidence that this lens is way sharper than the collapsible & summitar. It is much closer to the rendering quality of the rigid. Of course I never actually used the original so it's hard to say 100% but the shop I bought it from is a reputable HK dealer & they were able to test the original & the replica side by side and said they had pretty much 98% same rendering. This report from LHSA seems to validate my own findings as well: https://m.imgur.com/a/myoqTSh In terms of who this lens could be for, like you said those of us who are curious & not willing to pay a fortune to try the original (it was the only 50mm lens I'd never got to try from Leica). Another potential buyer would be people interested in the Leica Mandler rendering from the 50s 〜 70s, and in a small package (I believe the Elcan is the smallest 50mm Leica made, not sure if the modern summarit is smaller though). For me I love the rigid summicron but it is double the size of this lens, weights 50g ish more & only focuses down to 1m, so the Elcan definitely has its advantages when compared to the closest 50mm of a similar era. By the way I found the specs on leicarumors for those interested: For Leica M-mount, M39-mount version will also be available for an extra charge and it will include an adapter (you will need an M-mount adapter to use the lens on M-mount cameras) Weight: 200-235g depending on finishes Dimensions: 36mm width, 51mm length Filter thread: 39mm (e39) Design: 4 elements in 4 groups, ultra-astigmat design just like the original ELCAN on the KE-7A Thanks for your insights on this lens. Is the 50/2 rigid sharper away from center wide open? Also in your experience, how their field curvature shape compare? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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