Light Lens Lab 50mm f/2 "Speed Panchro II" for Leica M

[hdmesa]

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37 minutes ago, tsleica said:

LLL has about a 50% defect rate..and thats on lenses the dealer receives that were supposed to be QC-ed at factory.

..these defects include.. minor cosmetic defects..to totally bum lenses.. dealers know this all too well..

Anyone ordering from a dealer that is unwilling to go thru the lens w/fine tooth comb and test on camera  body...may be in for a nasty surprise.

Just the fact that they listed the lens for customs at $15 bux value..should tell you something...lol..

BTW..I own the Elcan as well as the 8E and luv em..

But the 2 separate dealers I bought them from..said the exact same thing..about LLL.

1 dealer quit sellin em out of frustration..and the other..has no mercy for their criticism of LLL's policies and QC control.

I was going to buy the LLL/Cooke Panchro..but the dealer told me..

Dont buy right now..not yet..until the bugs are worked out in a few months.

And that this repro lens... is nothing like the original either..

Yes, I gave up on finding a properly manufactured 8 Element and my 50 Elcan was nearly impossible to unmount from the camera (a characteristic of the original Elcan that they should have corrected when producing the replica).

We need to see the final production model of the LLL SPII compared with an original before saying it's nothing like the original SPII. You also need to prove that statement with samples, otherwise it's merely anecdotal.

[Almizilero]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb tsleica:

Just the fact that they listed the lens for customs at $15 bux value..should tell you something...lol..

 

 While your other criticism have me worried a bit (even if it's just hearsay), this is just foolish. There has never been anything worth more than $50 sent from China with the actual value put in the documentation. Sellers always put in these ridiculously low prices in hope to slip past customs and spare their customers the import fees.

Regarding comparison with the original, one can only hope that someone will do this someday. Until then, I'll just have to go with if I like the look of the lens or not. And going by all the samples I've seen from people who actually used the lens/prototypes, I like the look quite a lot. That's why I orderd. Well, tomorrow I'll see for myself.

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[tsleica]

Quote

We need to see the final production model of the LLL SPII compared with an original before saying it's nothing like the original SPII. You also need to prove that statement with samples, otherwise it's merely anecdotal.

This comes from someone who owns more than 1 example of the original Cooke..

And has tested the LLL reproduction.

But until you have the original and repro in your hands..it doesnt really matter...what anyone says..or samples either..

But I'm not here to bash LLL..

Just sharing info.. that you can use..or not use..

I could have remained silent..and just let the chips fall where they may..and let the buyer QC their lenses and ship them back and forth.

But that said..

My Elcan and 8E came in perfect.

And it was no accident..

Why..because I had dealers that were honest and wanted to get good lenses to me and were willing to weed out the crappy ones.

fyi...The original 8E's were basically the same as Voightlander lenses photographically until months went by..and they were tweaked over time to look better.. changing the coatings and more..

I would wait on this new lens for awhile before purchase..until they are really ready for primetime in good form or close..so you wiill be satisfied.

Edited March 29, 2023 by tsleica

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, tsleica said:

This comes from someone who owns more than 1 example of the original Cooke..

And has tested the LLL reproduction.

But until you have the original and repro in your hands..it doesnt really matter...what anyone says..or samples either..

But I'm not here to bash LLL..

Just sharing info.. that you can use..or not use..

I could have remained silent..and just let the chips fall where they may..and let the buyer QC their lenses and ship them back and forth.

But that said..

My Elcan and 8E came in perfect.

And it was no accident..

Why..because I had dealers that were honest and wanted to get good lenses to me and were willing to weed out the crappy ones.

fyi...The original 8E's were basically the same as Voightlander lenses photographically until months went by..and they were tweaked over time to look better.. changing the coatings and more..

I would wait on this new lens for awhile before purchase..until they are really ready for primetime in good form or close..so you wiill be satisfied.

I don't think you're bashing at all. The QC by LLL is pretty bad, so that's a truth.

What's not a truth is saying the SPII is nothing like the originals when all your friend tested was an early prototype and just one copy of the many floating around. Since we both agree that LLL QC is often lacking, the prototype he was testing could have had IQ issues. Did your friend show you side-by-side images taken with both? Did you see a difference?

[tsleica]

This is a very trustworthy source..

Someone in the biz..

He has original Cooke lenses..(not the LLLprototype)..he has the real deal Cooke lenses.

The ones the cinema guys go crazy for..

And he has tested the recent LLL reproduction lens...against it..

According to him..the 2 are not comparable..

As to myself..it doesnt matter..

If the LLL works it works..

If you want the original..then go for that..

[Almizilero]

Final entry in the delivery story: LLL fully refunded customs and taxes! So they play a game of luck trying to avoid taxes, but if that fails they live up to their word don't let customers hanging. 👍 I'm quite happy with that kind of service!

Now I can't wait to get home and test out the lens! Lets hope customs put everything back where it belongs.

[catacore]

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2 hours ago, Almizilero said:

Final entry in the delivery story: LLL fully refunded customs and taxes! So they play a game of luck trying to avoid taxes, but if that fails they live up to their word don't let customers hanging. 👍 I'm quite happy with that kind of service!

Now I can't wait to get home and test out the lens! Lets hope customs put everything back where it belongs.

I'm glad to hear you got refunded by LLL, hopefully they will do this for all clients that have ordered their lenses, at least until they removed "taxes included" from their products webpages. And this is one important point (at least for their EU clients) - they have removed that "taxes included" claim. That means a price increase with +/- 20% for all EU clients.

 

Now @Almizilero, you have to dispell the @tsleica info by telling us your lens is as promised by LLL 😉

 

As for me, no news regarding shipping my lens....

Edited March 30, 2023 by catacore

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, tsleica said:

...According to him..the 2 are not comparable..

How though? Sharpness/IQ? Rendering of out of focus areas wide open?

Hopefully they will get a production copy and review the lens against their originals. We need people with that kind of experience reviewing it.

[Huss]

19 hours ago, tsleica said:

.in em out of frustration..and the other..has no mercy for their criticism of LLL's policies and QC control.

I was going to buy the LLL/Cooke Panchro..but the dealer told me..

Dont buy right now..not yet..until the bugs are worked out in a few months.

..

Sounds like the Leica 35 FLE II and new Leica 35 SR.

[Al Brown]

20 hours ago, tsleica said:

LLL has about a 50% defect rate..and thats on lenses the dealer receives that were supposed to be QC-ed at factory.

..these defects include.. minor cosmetic defects..to totally bum lenses.. dealers know this all too well..

Anyone ordering from a dealer that is unwilling to go thru the lens w/fine tooth comb and test on camera  body...may be in for a nasty surprise.

A lot of truth in that. See post #31

Edited March 30, 2023 by Al Brown

[Al Brown]

11 hours ago, tsleica said:

This is a very trustworthy source..

Someone in the biz..

He has original Cooke lenses..(not the LLLprototype)..he has the real deal Cooke lenses.

The ones the cinema guys go crazy for..

And he has tested the recent LLL reproduction lens...against it..

According to him..the 2 are not comparable..

 

I very much doubt it. I have done side by side comparison of LLL 8 element and Leica 8 element and found the lenses were about 94% identical in render. Since LLL is just picking up expired patents and using them to revive those lens formulas I expect the Cooke SP and LLL SP to be on par. All the rest are just Chinese whispers.

[Almizilero]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

How though? Sharpness/IQ? Rendering of out of focus areas wide open?

Hopefully they will get a production copy and review the lens against their originals. We need people with that kind of experience reviewing it.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb catacore:

I'm glad to hear you got refunded by LLL, hopefully they will do this for all clients that have ordered their lenses, at least until they removed "taxes included" from their products webpages. And this is one important point (at least for their EU clients) - they have removed that "taxes included" claim. That means a price increase with +/- 20% for all EU clients.

 

Now @Almizilero, you have to dispell the @tsleica info by telling us your lens is as promised by LLL 😉

 

As for me, no news regarding shipping my lens....

 

Well, not sure if I can dispell anything and I surely can't compare it to the original. But here are my first impressions:

The build quality of the lens is top notch! It has a beautiful finish that work perfectly well with the silver M10. I would have gone for the black finish if it had been available, but now I'm quite happy with the way it is. It kinda adds to the vintage feel that this lens just oozes. (Vintage is the word that sums up this lens pretty well...)

I love the way it handles! I only have two M lenses, the 50 Summicron V5 and the Voigtländer 28 Ultron. The Panchro immediately took the top spot in handling and "feel". The focus is just buttery smooth with just the right amount of resistance. I just think that the focus throw is a bit long. But it works well with the "bunny ears". My favourite part is the aperture ring. I usually don't fuss about these things, but this one has the best clicking sound ever! It doesn't actually click, it has a kind of rich, deep sound to it. Just nice. It mounts nice and easy with not to much or to little resistance.

I can't really say much about image quality yet. I could only do a short walk after work before it started pouring again. But from the first samples, I think I got what I expected. The lens just has the certain look that I saw in the reviews and sample images. A vintage look (there is that word again). It puts a glow in the images by dissolving the contrast edges. I asked at the beginning of the thread if a Pro Mist filter wouldn't give similar results, but no, it's a different kind of glow. The images look vintage with less contrast and blurry edges. But in a good way.

As far as I can tell, the lens is sharp (enough). I think one reviewer said it's as sharp as the Summicron V5 and that didn't seem likely to me. Now I can already tell it (mine) isn't. But it has a good sharpness that fits the overall look. Only problem I have is that the "glow" also occurs on objects that are in focus, when they have contrasty edges. The closer focus is to infinity, the more pronounced it is.

So yeah, overall the first impressions make me quite happy. I might put it up against the V5 tomorrow and do some tests for de-centering and infinity focus. But so far, there were no red flags. I can already tell that this isn't going to replace the Summicron, the Panchro is to much of a special pupose lens. But it's a great lens for that cinematic, vintage look.

 

[tsleica]

Great to hear you got a good lens! And they refunded customs too.

Looking forward to your experience w/it.

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, Almizilero said:

 

 

Well, not sure if I can dispell anything and I surely can't compare it to the original. But here are my first impressions:

The build quality of the lens is top notch! It has a beautiful finish that work perfectly well with the silver M10. I would have gone for the black finish if it had been available, but now I'm quite happy with the way it is. It kinda adds to the vintage feel that this lens just oozes. (Vintage is the word that sums up this lens pretty well...)

I love the way it handles! I only have two M lenses, the 50 Summicron V5 and the Voigtländer 28 Ultron. The Panchro immediately took the top spot in handling and "feel". The focus is just buttery smooth with just the right amount of resistance. I just think that the focus throw is a bit long. But it works well with the "bunny ears". My favourite part is the aperture ring. I usually don't fuss about these things, but this one has the best clicking sound ever! It doesn't actually click, it has a kind of rich, deep sound to it. Just nice. It mounts nice and easy with not to much or to little resistance.

I can't really say much about image quality yet. I could only do a short walk after work before it started pouring again. But from the first samples, I think I got what I expected. The lens just has the certain look that I saw in the reviews and sample images. A vintage look (there is that word again). It puts a glow in the images by dissolving the contrast edges. I asked at the beginning of the thread if a Pro Mist filter wouldn't give similar results, but no, it's a different kind of glow. The images look vintage with less contrast and blurry edges. But in a good way.

As far as I can tell, the lens is sharp (enough). I think one reviewer said it's as sharp as the Summicron V5 and that didn't seem likely to me. Now I can already tell it (mine) isn't. But it has a good sharpness that fits the overall look. Only problem I have is that the "glow" also occurs on objects that are in focus, when they have contrasty edges. The closer focus is to infinity, the more pronounced it is.

So yeah, overall the first impressions make me quite happy. I might put it up against the V5 tomorrow and do some tests for de-centering and infinity focus. But so far, there were no red flags. I can already tell that this isn't going to replace the Summicron, the Panchro is to much of a special pupose lens. But it's a great lens for that cinematic, vintage look.

 

Thanks for the first impressions. I was the one that said the prototype I tested matched the 50 Cron. It could be the change in coatings that LLL said they would make is at work here. They said the final coatings would be more true to the original, and I think the prototype coatings may have been producing higher contrast. "Apparent sharpness" will be affected by a coating change or any time there is a reduction of flare resistance. I also didn't see much glow at all wide open with the prototype, much less glow that increased with distance. The production version sounds like it will be a much more interesting lens.

[pippy]

24 minutes ago, Almizilero said:

...the lens...has a good sharpness that fits the overall look. Only problem I have is that the "glow" also occurs on objects that are in focus, when they have contrasty edges. The closer focus is to infinity, the more pronounced it is...

Thank you, Almizilero, for the 'First Impressions' report. Very interesting.

Might I ask whether the "glow" to which you refer is only present in the f2.0 / f2.8 (-ish) range after which time it reduces / disappears? I'm wondering if the SP II behaves in a fashion similar to the v1/v2 35mm Summilux where the 'glow' is really only apparent at the very wide-end of the aperture scale.

Thanks in advance!

Philip.

[Almizilero]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb hdmesa:

Thanks for the first impressions. I was the one that said the prototype I tested matched the 50 Cron. It could be the change in coatings that LLL said they would make is at work here. They said the final coatings would be more true to the original, and I think the prototype coatings may have been producing higher contrast. "Apparent sharpness" will be affected by a coating change or any time there is a reduction of flare resistance. I also didn't see much glow at all wide open with the prototype, much less glow that increased with distance. The production version sounds like it will be a much more interesting lens.

It's a bit hard to describe, especially as a non-native speaker. But comparing my first images with your sample shots, I'd say there is less contrast. And depending on the lighting situation and the background, the light seems to eat into foreground elements. I also think it is not very forgiving when the focus isn't perfect. When it's a bit off, the contrast edges start to dissolve real quick. But yeah, so far it's a really interesting lens.

Pic 1: 100% crop, focus was on the sign but not perfect, see how the figures already have a slight glow. Light from the background looks like it eats away at the sign.

Pic 2: 50% crop. Light at the top produces more glow, in the shadows there is less contrast and has more aparent sharpness.

Pic 3: Just all the nice little "imperfections" of the lens at once: Nicely blurred background, crazy CA, glow around the contrast edges (look at those out of focus white blossoms).

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[Almizilero]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb pippy:

Thank you, Almizilero, for the 'First Impressions' report. Very interesting.

Might I ask whether the "glow" to which you refer is only present in the f2.0 / f2.8 (-ish) range after which time it reduces / disappears? I'm wondering if the SP II behaves in a fashion similar to the v1/v2 35mm Summilux where the 'glow' is really only apparent at the very wide-end of the aperture scale.

Thanks in advance!

Philip.

Hi, today I only used it at max aperture. Tomorrow I can look into that.

[pippy]

10 minutes ago, Almizilero said:

Hi, today I only used it at max aperture. Tomorrow I can look into that.

Thanks. I hope the weather improves for you!

Philip.

[hdmesa]

12 minutes ago, Almizilero said:

It's a bit hard to describe, especially as a non-native speaker. But comparing my first images with your sample shots, I'd say there is less contrast. And depending on the lighting situation and the background, the light seems to eat into foreground elements. I also think it is not very forgiving when the focus isn't perfect. When it's a bit off, the contrast edges start to dissolve real quick. But yeah, so far it's a really interesting lens.

Pic 1: 100% crop, focus was on the sign but not perfect, see how the figures already have a slight glow. Light from the background looks like it eats away at the sign.

Pic 2: 50% crop. Light at the top produces more glow, in the shadows there is less contrast and has more aparent sharpness.

Pic 3: Just all the nice little "imperfections" of the lens at once: Nicely blurred background, crazy CA, glow around the contrast edges (look at those out of focus white blossoms).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Wow, that isn't even the same lens! I have to say I like this glow and character much more than the prototype I used. This could be the 50mm "Holy Grail" of character that everyone wants, which is a 50mm lens that renders exactly like the 35 Lux v2 (or Steel Rim).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[tsleica]

Thats a very niice lens! 

I'll probably end up getting it.