SL2 with Atomos Ninja V setup

[Aaron Daniel]

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27 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Aaron, are you using the latest firmware on the Ninja? With L-log enabled, internal and external recording match and thus do the LUTs. At least on the SL2-S.

Aaaahh yes, I remember this was a topic mentioned somewhere in this forum haha. Yes I've updated to the current firmware, and I do recognize that the Ninja V has the ability to work with Leica L-Log now. I should have clarified in my previous comment that I am working in Final Cut Pro and thus don't have the option to use select/view full data range coming from the Ninja V 😅 Thanks for bringing this up, Hans!

So to restate my previous thesis:

Internal and External L-Log on the SL2/S is indeed both beautiful and without noticeable difference... unless you are using editing software that doesn't recognize the Ninja V ProRes file of full data haha

Edited March 14, 2021 by Aaron Daniel

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, hirohhhh said:

Are there any advantages (IQ wise) of Ninja over SL2 internal, when shooting 24 or 30fps 422 10bit? Do you get the identical results, or Ninja is still superior, because of the codec or any other reason?

It really depends. They should both look the same if you stick to minimal adjustments in post. Internal recordings are more compressed, but that shouldn't leave any marks if you don't stretch them too far later.

ProRes has a lot of practical advantages, but those may not be relevant to you. It can be a lot easier to edit, depending on your NLE, OS, CPU, GPU, I/O, etc. Honestly, there are way too many variables to say for sure, but ProRes puts a lot less load on your CPU and GPU (at the expense of higher I/O). Those advantages add-up if you use a lot of effects and tracks on your timeline.

ProRes (and DNxHR) are industry standards that any professional NLE understands. Again, that's not an issue with single-person work, but those two formats are essential if you will be working with a team (editor, colourist, animators, other post work). You don't want to find-out weeks after your shoot that there is a weird incompatibility between Leica's flavour of H.264 and some piece of software/hardware.

Other than that, internal recording is fine. you won't notice a difference in the vast majority of cases.

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[simon_hsn]

You might find the following interview interesting. There are lot of good insights. 

https://www.eoshd.com/news/interview-with-stephan-schulz-leica-camera-on-the-sl2-and-filmmaking/

 

My take on the internal MOV recording vs. external ProRes 4.2.2 recording:

The difference in quality is there, especially if you chose ProResHQ , but it is negligible in the real world, in my humble opinion. 

For 25p 4k UHD (3840x2160p) we get the following data rates aka compression: 
- Internal MOV: 400 Mbit/s
- External ProRes:  492 Mbit/s
- External ProRes HQ: 737 Mbit/s

Both codecs are 10 bit 4.2.2 All-I. 

ProRes has the key advantage that it is much easier on your system to edit and is regarded as an industry standard.

Another aspect I find a bit odd is that Leica (&Panasonic) always give you 400 Mbit/s despite differences in framerate and DCI4k vs UHD. ProRes as well as the Sony A7sIII go on a different route: you will get a different data rates depending on the frame rate (e.g. 250 Mbit/s for 25p UHD, 300 Mbit/s for 30p UHD and 500 Mbit/s for 50p UHD - For XAVCS-I)

[hirohhhh]

What's in your opinion the best trade-off for slow motion (60fps):

- Shoot in FHD - smaller resolution
- Shoot in 4K or C4K - less colors in 8bit
- Record externally and carry extra weight

Edited March 15, 2021 by hirohhhh

[simon_hsn]

I asked myself the same question and conclude that I am afraid, but there is no perfect solution with the SL2-S for Slo-mo 60p (&120p) right now (the tech is just not there yet). 

Thus, consider the SL2-S as a 4k 25p camera. 

Everything else is about understanding the current trade-offs and choosing the right path for your current project, only you can answer that:

- First of, if you want 4k 60p, it will always come with a crop factor (internal & external). This is a real bummer, as we really want the glory of full frame.
- Internal 4k 60p is currently only possible 8 bit color, which makes it not suitable for L-Log and serious color grading. Even with the upcoming firmware update offering 4k 60p 10 bit, it will likely come with 4.2.0 color and HEVC compression (likely requires the creation of proxies in your workflow).
- External still comes with a crop and requires extra effort and bulk.

I would personally trade-off a bit of resolution and go the 1080p route, if internal recording is required. When max quality is required, I would chose an external recorder. 

In my opinion, if you want high quality (aka 10. bit 4.2.2. All-I) internal 4k Slo-mo, these are you next best options:

- Get a Sony a7SIII/FX3, which offers internal 4k up to 120p 10 bit 4.2.2 All-I
- Wait for for an SL3-S. The next gen of will hopefully offer internal 4k 120p 10 bit 4.2.2 All-I with no crop.

Edited March 15, 2021 by simon_hsn

[Slender]

2 hours ago, simon_hsn said:

- Wait for for an SL3-S. The next gen of will hopefully offer internal 4k 120p 10 bit 4.2.2 All-I with no crop.

Funny that is actually my take on it (having a SL2). 3 years at the very least.

[simon_hsn]

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On 3/15/2021 at 1:19 AM, hirohhhh said:

What's in your opinion the best trade-off for slow motion (60fps):

- Shoot in FHD - smaller resolution
- Shoot in 4K or C4K - less colors in 8bit
- Record externally and carry extra weight

Now firmware 2.0 has been released for the SL2-S, I think the best option is to chose the internal 200 Mbit/s 10 bit 4.2.0 HEVC compressed file. Although not offering a 4.2.2. Color sampling, it is nice to see that Leica went on to leverage HEVC compression for good quality instead of very small file sizes. 

One thing I really appreciate is the possiblity to chose 48 fps. Unfortunately it does not output 48 fps to the external recorder. Does anyone know why? (At least for 50 fps this seems to be possible, maybe it is a firmware bug?) 

[AphotoBerlin]

The Atomos Ninja V now supports H265 / HEVC recording for 99$

https://www.atomos.com/products/ninja-v

Edited June 3, 2021 by AphotoBerlin

[jmm1]

Hi,

 

I am looking for a Smallrig cage for my SL2 and I have been told that the SmallRig (2345) for the S1 could work with a minor modification to the Strap lug Cutout on the right hand side.

I need one to hold a Ninja V.

Has anyone done this?  or found a Cage for the SL2?

 

TIA

 

John

 

[Slender]

Yes.

Half-Rig cage for S1H + 8sinn top handle. Super happy with it.

there is a thread about this somewhere

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[Photoworks]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, jmm1 said:

Hi,

 

I am looking for a Smallrig cage for my SL2 and I have been told that the SmallRig (2345) for the S1 could work with a minor modification to the Strap lug Cutout on the right hand side.

I need one to hold a Ninja V.

Has anyone done this?  or found a Cage for the SL2?

 

TIA

 

John

 

I am using an universal cage from small rig that works well..

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DW3BAGE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

you can configure it as 1/2 cage. I have added a quick Arca mount for speed.

You can also fit it with SL2 battery grip

[bpLeica]

On 12/30/2019 at 6:06 PM, kuau said:

Has anyone used there SL2 with an Atomos Ninja 5?

I have mine all hooked up seems to work though I am not sure about the proper setup on the Ninja. 

I have L-LOG selected on the SL2 yet I don't even know what the native ISO is for L-LOG is it 800?
Any other tips would be greatly appriciated

Lastly what are the main differences between shooting in "Video" vs "CINE" mode on the SL2

Let me see if I can give it a crack to help you... NOTE: I started shooting a very complicated documentary with the Pan S1H+Ninja V with a Leica SL2 as second cam and eventually traded the Pan with the SL2S and shot the rest all on Leica gear...

First off, if you haven't already, take a look at this Gerald Undone Video... it'll get you on the right footing, he is good...

As for the settings.. Native ISO with L-Log is 400... when you set to Cine mode (which I recommend for video), it changes the ISO and Shutter gauge to cine standard which is ASA for sensor sensitivity and angle for shutter speed... you should try to use 180 degrees unless you run into florescent or other artificial lighting flicker problems in which case you should adjust the shutter angle until you don't see the flicker anymore. 

As for your Ninja V, the video settings are inconsequential as it does not affect your camera. Simply put, it just records whatever your camera is outputting from the HDMI interface. I won't repeat all the good recommendations Gerald is giving in the video... just follow that and you will be fine. ** Just be careful you don't impose anything such as LUT etc. on the recording... you can do whatever you want in the monitor page which only affects what you see not what it ends up recording...

In order to make the best use of your Ninja and the SL2 quality, I recommend that you set the camera to cine mode, cine4k all I and 400MBS... and LOG... autofocus is the Achilles heel despite the firmware upgrades but you can make it work by setting the sensitivity to the lowest you can handle and the speed to maximum. (at least that is what I found works best)... 

last but not least (which is not covered in Gerald's video) is using the waveform monitor on the Ninja... with the SL2 you will be best served if you overexpose slightly (1-1.5 stops) but just slightly... you will get best results in L-Log...

Another note that I learned the hard way with many sleepless nights is to turn off the IBIS if you are shooting on a tripod... especially on the Pan S1H I was wondering why my tripod footage is ever so soft and it dawned on me that the IBIS on a tripod is the culprit... since I figured it out myself, I saw other comments about this here and there... 

I might be offering more than you asked for but in the interest of as much as I learned in over a year of intense shooting, last but not least is sound... you have to retard your sound setting in the Ninja by 8 frames to get proper sync out of the HDMI (camera sound)  and don't forget to activate sound via HDMI in the SL2 settings... you can always connect a second sound input on the Ninja mic in and this way you will have camera sound on one channel and external sound on another for best coverage... 

Good luck and hope all this helps... 

 

[Photoworks]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, jmm1 said:

Hi,

 

I am looking for a Smallrig cage for my SL2 and I have been told that the SmallRig (2345) for the S1 could work with a minor modification to the Strap lug Cutout on the right hand side.

I need one to hold a Ninja V.

Has anyone done this?  or found a Cage for the SL2?

 

TIA

 

John

 

funny enough , I got an email today from 

Kondor Blue 

they will have an SL2 cage in the next month, it is the modified S1H cage I had tried before..

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, bpLeica said:

Let me see if I can give it a crack to help you... NOTE: I started shooting a very complicated documentary with the Pan S1H+Ninja V with a Leica SL2 as second cam and eventually traded the Pan with the SL2S and shot the rest all on Leica gear...

First off, if you haven't already, take a look at this Gerald Undone Video... it'll get you on the right footing, he is good...

As for the settings.. Native ISO with L-Log is 400... when you set to Cine mode (which I recommend for video), it changes the ISO and Shutter gauge to cine standard which is ASA for sensor sensitivity and angle for shutter speed... you should try to use 180 degrees unless you run into florescent or other artificial lighting flicker problems in which case you should adjust the shutter angle until you don't see the flicker anymore. 

As for your Ninja V, the video settings are inconsequential as it does not affect your camera. Simply put, it just records whatever your camera is outputting from the HDMI interface. I won't repeat all the good recommendations Gerald is giving in the video... just follow that and you will be fine. ** Just be careful you don't impose anything such as LUT etc. on the recording... you can do whatever you want in the monitor page which only affects what you see not what it ends up recording...

In order to make the best use of your Ninja and the SL2 quality, I recommend that you set the camera to cine mode, cine4k all I and 400MBS... and LOG... autofocus is the Achilles heel despite the firmware upgrades but you can make it work by setting the sensitivity to the lowest you can handle and the speed to maximum. (at least that is what I found works best)... 

last but not least (which is not covered in Gerald's video) is using the waveform monitor on the Ninja... with the SL2 you will be best served if you overexpose slightly (1-1.5 stops) but just slightly... you will get best results in L-Log...

Another note that I learned the hard way with many sleepless nights is to turn off the IBIS if you are shooting on a tripod... especially on the Pan S1H I was wondering why my tripod footage is ever so soft and it dawned on me that the IBIS on a tripod is the culprit... since I figured it out myself, I saw other comments about this here and there... 

I might be offering more than you asked for but in the interest of as much as I learned in over a year of intense shooting, last but not least is sound... you have to retard your sound setting in the Ninja by 8 frames to get proper sync out of the HDMI (camera sound)  and don't forget to activate sound via HDMI in the SL2 settings... you can always connect a second sound input on the Ninja mic in and this way you will have camera sound on one channel and external sound on another for best coverage... 

Good luck and hope all this helps... 

 

Good point there that is my experience too..

I just want to add that in Cine mode you lose AUTO ISO setting. you are all in manual, that is typically what you want, but sometime it nice to have auto iso when using a zoom.

I would suggest creating a PROFILE in you camera with all you favorite settings for video LOG.

[hansvons]

5 hours ago, bpLeica said:

with the SL2 you will be best served if you overexpose slightly (1-1.5 stops) but just slightly... you will get best results in L-Log...

Excellent summary.

I may add, that the SL2S L-Log lives in Rec2020 natively. In the beginning I found that rather odd. Most log profiles compromise on the regular Rec709 colour space more or less well, the SL2 and the SL2S don't. In Rec 709 the colours are off and the DR is crippled when using the Rec709 Natural LUT to adjust for the colours.. But when managing to work around Rec 709, via a colour managed timeline in Rec2020 or even in ACES (there the IDT is Rec2020) the SL2S shows a vast dynamic range with tons of information found in the shadows, which made me rating the camera ISO 800 like the Alexa. And, similar to the Alexa, you don't have to worry about your shadows, meaning that protecting highlights leads to fine results when shooting landscapes, for instance. Digging into the shadows and recovering highlights is great fun with the Leica. Bottom line: using Rec2020 is a clever move by Leica. 

[Slender]

@bpLeica You do not regret/miss on some tools the S1H has over the SL2(s)???

I could use the following I must confess:

1. vectorscope
2. dual zebras
3. exposure check tools besides waveform
4. advanced anti-flickering
5. 640 or 4000 native ISO
6. The wonderful tilt/swivel screen
7. The huge top panel customizable
8. 24 bits audio internal, advanced settings for lowering pre-amps...
9. Raw....
10. OLPF filter: no moire on fabrics
11. ????
    
     

Edited December 8, 2021 by Slender

[Aaron Daniel]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:43 PM, jmm1 said:

I am looking for a Smallrig cage for my SL2 and I have been told that the SmallRig (2345) for the S1 could work with a minor modification to the Strap lug Cutout on the right hand side.

I need one to hold a Ninja V.

Has anyone done this?  or found a Cage for the SL2?

I have been using both the S1H full cage and half cage by SmallRig

I've attached photos of the full cage (https://amzn.to/3DBNwFq) where you need to do some metalworking to get the right lug to fit in properly. But once this is done, it fits really well  (I've attached a photo holding the cage with a top handle and Ninja V as well)

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 8, 2021 by Aaron Daniel

[bpLeica]

5 hours ago, Slender said:

@bpLeica You do not regret/miss on some tools the S1H has over the SL2(s)???

I could use the following I must confess:

1. vectorscope
2. dual zebras
3. exposure check tools besides waveform
4. advanced anti-flickering
5. 640 or 4000 native ISO
6. The wonderful tilt/swivel screen
7. The huge top panel customizable
8. 24 bits audio internal, advanced settings for lowering pre-amps...
9. Raw....
10. OLPF filter: no moire on fabrics
11. ????
    
     

Well, of course I agree with the times you mention... in fact over the last two years I recommend the S1H to whomever was asking for my advice and we did over 300 hours of documentary shooting with the S1H... it is great for music videos, short films and I know many major feature films that use the S1H with Arri workflow... it is a great camera... I like the image rendering (including color science) compared to canon, Sony etc.... with the right lens (obviously Leica as the first, best choice) it gives excellent results... that said, I find it much less useful in quick run and gun situations without a dedicated camera crew to work the camera... in my particular use case, once the heavy lifting of the documentary simmered down and I no longer had full-time cameraperson, I found it difficult to use and all the bells and whistles were getting in the way... I ended up using the SL2 (which was a second backup camera) much more often. So without a production crew to focus, I honestly don't miss any of the dozen items you mentioned... I just spent a bunch of time and saved three perfect user profiles and pick up the camera and shoot without fidgeting with all those buttons on the S1H... I concentrate much more on the work especially in this case, it is a very serious documentary on a difficult subject that needs a lot of intimacy... Now the autofocus... frankly, at least in my world, serious video shooters don't use autofocus for 80% of the time... as frustrating it is that the Leica alliance has messed up so badly on that front, I prefer the lens quality, ease of use and high build quality of SL2/SL2S in my small world.... P.S. now you can do raw 422 with SL I think although I haven't used it yet and just stick with Proress 422 at 400MBS in L-Log

[Slender]

15 hours ago, bpLeica said:

P.S. now you can do raw 422 with SL I think although I haven't used it yet and just stick with Proress 422 at 400MBS in L-Log

Thanks for your detailed answer! You surely have my curiosity on and I would very much like to see your films

However this last point, you can't as of today, unless I have been living under a rock recently.... Leica said (before the SL2s came out, however....) that they were not interested in the RAW thing because the "+" (image flexibility) are largely outweighted by the "-" incredible large file sizes, more grain to deal with in post... and possibly the HDMI port of the SL2(s) cant deal with it? SL2 can output it's 5K mode over HDMI and that is a bit sad....lol. Unless it's the atomos fault.

Side note: If you use AF in 50 or 60 fps, and on top of that in s35, it's incredibly good compared to what it used to be. Nice for gimball work in a pinch.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Slender

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[hirohhhh]

On 12/8/2021 at 7:43 AM, Aaron Daniel said:

I have been using both the S1H full cage and half cage by SmallRig

I've attached photos of the full cage (https://amzn.to/3DBNwFq) where you need to do some metalworking to get the right lug to fit in properly. But once this is done, it fits really well  (I've attached a photo holding the cage with a top handle and Ninja V as well)

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I had an old SH1 cage from 8Sinn. I realized it actually fits really well on SL2 with some aluminum shaving on one corner.