M Lens to Nikon Z mount adapter

[Huss]

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8 hours ago, LarsHP said:

You didn't get the important part of my post: silly expensive - while lacking important features that other camera manufacturers all have.

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Silly expensive would only apply if other mfgs made the same thing for less money.  But they don't.  So Leica charges what the market would bear, and obviously that price point has been, and is, successful.

Whether it is worth it is up to you - and apparently it is not.  But because it is not does not mean the price is silly.  It is what Leica's target audience are willing to pay.

FYI I would never pay new money for a digital Leica.  They are not worth it to me at that price point  - but used?  Most definitely.  Would I say that new price point is silly?  No, because Leica is a business, and they have their audience.

[jaapv]

Yes - but to Leica the traditional customers are the solid base of their sales. The more "progressive" (I am not sure whether  progressive equals feature-loving) customers are far more fickle. and tend to disappear in the  direction of other camera tyeps.

 

20 minutes ago, lct said:

What Jaap is describing here is the traditional part of Leica customers. There are also more progressive customers like Lars and perhaps in-between ones like me. For now, Leica tries to take care of all of us with both M10 and M11 cameras.

 

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[lct]

IBIS will come soon or late. The proof will be in the puding

[Huss]

Perhaps I'm one of the few, but all I want from my digital M is a film M with a digital sensor.  That's it.  Others have asked the same from the other mfgs, but no-one has come close.  I tried the Nikon DF but that was a joke in comparison - a huge, bloated camera that had a terrible manual focus screen so it only really was useful with AF.  And its AF system was behind even what Nikon offered at the time.

[Huss]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

IBIS will come soon or late. The proof will be in the puding

Maybe.  That is the thing with the digital M.  Now that Leica has all the resolution (and modern sensor tech) that anyone could need, what could they offer in future models?  And still keep what an M is?

It's almost like an interchangeable lens Q series camera would make more sense than changing the design philosophy of the M.

[jaapv]

That  is quite possible. But most of the other stuff advocated in various threads is seen as just gimmicky by the traditional  Leica M customers.
Remember the uproar about the Video on the M240? Even if it fits the concept of a compact travel and reportage camera. Even with the argument "if you don't use it don't switch it on".
The only reason Leica dropped it was that they could not implement in a shrunken body, despite the  marketing department trying to spin it as "popular demand" . 

 

7 minutes ago, lct said:

IBIS will come soon or late. The proof will be in the puding

 

[lct]

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17 minutes ago, Huss said:

Maybe.  That is the thing with the digital M.  Now that Leica has all the resolution (and modern sensor tech) that anyone could need, what could they offer in future models?  And still keep what an M is?

It's almost like an interchangeable lens Q series camera would make more sense than changing the design philosophy of the M.

The way i see it, IBIS is closer to the design philosophy of the M than a camera unable to shoot handheld at slow shutter speeds contrary to what some of us have been doing for half a century.

Edited September 1, 2023 by lct

[Huss]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

The way i see it, IBIS is more close to the design philosophy of the M than a camera unable to shoot handheld at slow shutter speeds contrary to what some of us have been doing for half a century.

I have had zero issues shooting my 10r handheld at low shutter speeds.  I can do it the same as with my film Ms.

It sounds like because you can no longer do this - age perhaps (it will happen to all of us) - you have decided the camera is at fault.

[jaapv]

Maybe that - but mostly the insane magnification of 60 MP @ 100% on a mere computer screen. If only people would realize that the mini-flaws they are seeing were always there but invisible. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

I have had zero issues shooting my 10r handheld at low shutter speeds.  I can do it the same as with my film Ms.

It sounds like because you can no longer do this - age perhaps (it will happen to all of us) - you have decided the camera is at fault.

The issue of blurry pics at 60mp has been treated elsewhere (link) but you have all my congrats if you feel free from it at 50mp. I see it obviously when comparing 40mp pics with and w/o IBIS in spite of my steady hands for an admittedly grand father.

Edited September 1, 2023 by lct

[lct]

Just to show what i see when comparing 40mp pics with and w/o IBIS (Kolari mod Sony A7r2, Elmar-C 90/4, 1/100s, handheld). FWIW.

FF with IBIS on:

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Crops with IBIS off and on:

 

[jaapv]

Nobody disputes that IBIS works - they only dispute that it is needed for their photography.

https://phototeacher.blog/2018/10/26/the-ibis-myth/

The whole point is that it invites you to choose a shutterspeed that will render everything motion-blur free, except your moving subject.  Without IBIS you would be smart enough to choose a shutterspeed that would produce a photograph that would not be archived in the bin.

[250swb]

I think most users are oblivious if their photo is slightly blurred through lack of IBIS, they've got their M11 and APO and it's the best damned camera in the world (ahem). And of course the lack of tripod ownership is often the proof they don't care. But what is the subject that comes up time after time and gives people heart attacks that IBIS could cure? We know that really Leica's should come with a health warning that they attract dust, and this can cause palpitations or often long stressful journeys to deliver a camera to a Leica Store for dust repairs. Yet across the camera industry IBIS is the untrumpeted saviour in the everyday dust debacle that photographers face. But it's far, far more of an issue with Leica's than say Canon's or Nikon's because those owners could clean sensors using tried and tested means, but suggest a wet clean to a Leica owner and they think you're talking about something like a car wash. So a wobbly sensor would seem to be the solution to a tricky problem in an M camera.

And I agree with @lct, if you've got your Leica lens on a Sony, or in my case a Nikon, IBIS is something you do notice, not all the time, and not only the stability of the image. The difficulty comes if Leica implement it and the price of the camera will rise exponentially and everything will bloat, while other manufacturers treat it as well tested and cheap technology. So I'd be against it being implemented on an M and that Leica should keep the M camera simple, but then I do own a tripod and do wet clean my sensor from time to time.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by 250swb

[lct]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Nobody disputes that IBIS works - they only dispute that it is needed for their photography.

https://phototeacher.blog/2018/10/26/the-ibis-myth/

The whole point is that it invites you to choose a shutterspeed that will render everything motion-blur free, except your moving subject.  Without IBIS you would be smart enough to choose a shutterspeed that would produce a photograph that would not be archived in the bin.

This is just theory to me. In practice, w/o IBIS, i have no choice but shooting at fast apertures to avoid blur. Not a big deal TBH since my hands are steady enough to avoid blur at 1/(2f)s shutter speeds but as i suggested above, it does not comply with the M philosophy, rather the opposite of it. Since i got my first M in 1971, i've always been glad to be able to take photos at slow shutter speeds thanks to the unique design of the camera. I cannot do that with the M11 and i could not do it either with an M10-R i suspect. I would need a tripod for that, which is not my idea of the M ethos, or i would need IBIS which works so well on my Sony. I don't see any other actual solution.

Edited September 2, 2023 by lct

[jaapv]

You still can do it with your M11, if you don't examine the 60 MP file at 100% or 200% but just print it like you always did. 

[lct]

14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You still can do it with your M11, if you don't examine the 60 MP file at 100% or 200% but just print it like you always did. 

Leica should stick a label on the box warning against pixel peeping then. People spending little fortunes in a 60mp camera are supposed to use it the same way as their other cameras including at 100%.

[jaapv]

Have you ever calculated  the size of a print at 100 % of a 60 MP camera? 

I am not against IBIS, but it is not a panacea, and has its drawbacks. It mitigates the effects of camera shake, but not of motion blur  by subject movement. 
However it is worthwhile to go to the root cause and consider where camera shake comes from. And  whether you are not suddenly seeing a flaw that always was there but not perceptible.

And yes, personally I think 60 MP is vast overkill, especially on a rangefinder camera concept.  But what can I say ?... Leica has to move with the market in order to keep selling cameras.

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Have you ever calculated  the size of a print at 100 % of a 60 MP camera?

I have no idea. All my PP work is made at 100%.

[jaapv]

Mine isn’t. It distorts the optical impression of the final print. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LarsHP]

On 9/1/2023 at 7:50 PM, jaapv said:

The point, however, is that  the M is not stripped down (from what more highly featured model??) but exactly tailored to  the  expectations of its customers. They prefer their money to pay for haptics, build quality, image quality, overall experience, etc. Should they have interest in an all-singin', all dancin' mirrorless, they'll add it to their gear.

We still disagree. The reason there is no IBIS in the M cameras, as far as I understand, is that there isn't room for the IBIS mechanism while keeping the classical / standard M camera thickness. In my book, this could be sorted out by letting the mount stick out a few millimeters from the body while keeping the overall thickness. At least one model could be offered with that trade-off.

If the M10 had IBIS, I would probably have bought it (used), but since it doesn't (and there are in fact still no M camera with IBIS), I am using a sensor glass modified mirrorless camera with my M lenses. Via smart adapters, it also allows me to have the set aperture stored in EXIF data, instead of the wild guessing that M cameras offer. This performance does not live up to the exactness expected from Leica. Why on earth doesn't Leica M have a small dial where the user can set the used aperture for EXIF data use?