M10 to M10-P (rumored) Upgrade Program

[IkarusJohn]

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I had a motor drive on my FM2. That made an extraordinary crashing sound with each exposure. To be honest, I almost never take pictures where the sound of any of my Leicas is an issue. They’re all quieter than a cellphone, which are always in abundance, and the sound of a shutter never stops traffic in my experience.

Edited September 3, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[brill64]

In my experience, the M10's snappy shutter has gotten me into trouble on several occasions & now (annoyingly) makes me think twice before taking a picture at close range. It's quite noisy & isn't subdued by a half case or well timed cough

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[schattenundlicht]

In my experience, the M10's snappy shutter has gotten me into trouble on several occasions & now (annoyingly) makes me think twice before taking a picture at close range. It's quite noisy & isn't subdued by a half case or well timed cough

Just curious: What other cameras do you use? I do not find my M10 more intrusive than my other M's and from technical measurements (including spectral analysis) it shouldn't be.

 

For the photographer himself, haptics of shutter button actuation and miniscule body vibrations may also play a role in subjective evaluation (that may be why many of us prefer their M3's). However, for an unbiased bystander (i.e. the subject to be photographed), I do not think that there will be much of a difference between M3, M6, M7, M10. Well, it is not, in my experience. I explicitly exempt the M9 from that list.

[LocalHero1953]

....................................

 

An M with a fully electronic shutter would be a very interesting proposition. Whether it is viable probably depends on things such as whether sensor dust can be solved as well the potential risk of fast lenses burning an expensive sensor rather than a shutter curtain (has anyone pointed a wide open Noctilux at the sun while in live view...?).

Jono Slack told me in a response on FB that he thought the M10 sensor is incapable of supporting a fully electronic silent shutter - hence the efforts Leica has made to silence the M10-P's physical shutter. An electronic one would be cheaper, if it was possible. I find it surprising that such an option was effectively eliminated at design stage; after all, the SL, which came earlier, has one.

 

Perhaps others with more technical knowledge than me could comment on whether silent shutter capability is linked to video capability i.e. by choosing a sensor for the M10 that cannot provide video, then you cannot have a silent shutter either.

[Mark II]

There are usually three variants of a live-view still-image shutter system:

 

1) normal (shutter closes, opens, closes, then finally re-opens to resume live-view). This is what the M10 does.

2) electronic-first-curtain (shutter closes only at the end of the exposure, and then reopens to resume live-view).

3) fully-electronic (no mechanical shutter at all).

 

Video is often a compromise implementation, where sections of the sensor are progressively blanked and read back. This shows up as "rolling shutter" distortion with moving objects (slit scan . Also, video data read-out from the sensor is often at a significantly lower quality than with still images (to make the handling the flood of data easier on the camera electronics). Some (most, *cough*) modern cameras can do this at full bit depth/resolution and sufficiently quickly to make a fully electronic shutter practical for most normal still shooting.

 

I would guess that the M10 sensor has no EFC and a relatively slow read-out...

[Gobert]

I am always surprised at how Leica claims that they have such a quiet shutter in digital M's. My M10 is the loudest digital camera that I shoot with today, and loud enough to attract attention on quieter streets.

 

Than you probably never used a Nikon DSLR (semi) pro. D3, D4, D700 etc......

[pico]

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I discovered a new word recently: solipsism.

There's a lot of it about, especially on the internet*.

 

Ironic is it not that a true solipsist would bother to try changing others' minds?

[farnz]

Ironic is it not that a true solipsist would bother to try changing others' minds?

 

I suspect that most of the latter are onanists.

 

Pete.

[Guest tofu_man]

Just curious: What other cameras do you use? I do not find my M10 more intrusive than my other M's and from technical measurements (including spectral analysis) it shouldn't be.

 

For the photographer himself, haptics of shutter button actuation and miniscule body vibrations may also play a role in subjective evaluation (that may be why many of us prefer their M3's). However, for an unbiased bystander (i.e. the subject to be photographed), I do not think that there will be much of a difference between M3, M6, M7, M10. Well, it is not, in my experience. I explicitly exempt the M9 from that list.

 

I've had most digital Ms, don't find the M10's shutter to be particularly discreet, and it's caused occasional issues for me when shooting in sensitive environments. While it may be quieter than other Ms in terms of dB, the shutter sound seems quite high pitched, and reflects off any nearby hard walls.

 

I'm not losing any sleep over it as the M10 is an outstanding camera, and I can use my Q when necessary.

[schattenundlicht]

[...] While it may be quieter than other Ms in terms of dB, the shutter sound seems quite high pitched[...].

This is true. The M7‘s shutter sound, for example, has a sound pressure maximum at ~3.000 Hz, whereas the M10‘s is at ~6.000 Hz. The human auditory system is more sensitive at 3.000 Hz, thus, for a given sound pressure, a sound at 3.000 Hz will appear louder than a sound at 6.000 Hz. However, environmental sounds at 6.000 Hz may be rarer, making the M10‘s shutter sound stand out more amongst background noise. Complex topic...

 

[...] I'm not losing any sleep over it as the M10 is an outstanding camera[...]

+1 Edited September 4, 2018 by schattenundlicht

[Mark II]

Than you probably never used a Nikon DSLR (semi) pro. D3, D4, D700 etc......

 

 

Not a Nikon, but I did shoot a 5DIII on the street for several years. In silent shutter mode the sound seemed to be less obvious than the M10, probably not because it is absolutely quieter (it is not) but because it produces something closer to white noise with an extended duration rather than the sharply defined clack from the Leica.

 

But by far the worst that I have (and still use) are old Minolta film SLRs...

[LBJ2]

"The price of the complete upgrade package will cost around 2000 euros/dollars (price not confirmed yet). A smaller upgrade package will also be available. The official announcement will happen later this year." ( leicarumors.com) 

 

Wonder what the smaller upgrade package might entail? My interests lie in the touch screen and level. But nobody from Leica has called to ask my opinion yet   

 

[bags27]

 

"The price of the complete upgrade package will cost around 2000 euros/dollars (price not confirmed yet). A smaller upgrade package will also be available. The official announcement will happen later this year." ( leicarumors.com) 

 

Wonder what the smaller upgrade package might entail? My interests lie in the touch screen and level. But nobody from Leica has called to ask my opinion yet   

 

 

For a mere $800 you just get the screw. Or is that screwed....

[MyLeicaWorld]

350 euro for the top plate engraving. it takes more than 3 days. but after January 2019 an upgrade program will be available for changing the top plate including the engraving and the absence of the red dot..  of course it will cost much more than 350 euros...

[budjames]

I'm skeptical of the "Frankenstein" mod to install the silent shutter into my M10s.

 

I would love to have the quieter shutter and level, but not for the price suggested on in this thread. I would rather trade in my M10 for a new M10P. It will probably cost more, but then you get an original camera with a new warranty.

 

I purchased my first Leica, the M10, in Dec 2017. I purchased a second M10 body in March. I think that I will just shoot what I own and let me wallet heal. 

 

Regards,

Bud James

 

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.