Is there a right way or wrong way to use the Leica Monochrom

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

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Why do I still think you're playing with us?  Are you still on that rig?

 

Jeff

Thanks again Jeff, and Yes I am still on this bloody rig, but home tomorrow.............And NO I am not taking the pis$, I genuinely thought that I needed to ETTR and then pull it back, but I have got it now and won't forget.

After Mr Miller posted those almost black pictures reminded me that I had a few pictures of my old lady in Katmandu in a old building where the light was shining through the window but when I looked at the picture in lightroom I thought I had messed up so didn't do anything with it.......I quickly ran it through lightroom and got this.......okay not tac sharp as i was using my Noctilux at 0.95 in a room that was dark but it shows me how well I can recover back to the right.

 

And one more time NO I am not taking the mick.

Thanks again Jeff

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[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

I'm on a roll

Back streets of Katmandu

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[250swb]

 I genuinely thought that I needed to ETTR and then pull it back, but I have got it now and won't forget.

 

 

It is what annoys me when advice becomes pedantic and thrown into a conversation like a mantra. Yes, 'Expose to the Right' is technically correct, but all it means is expose as far as possible to the right of the histogram before blowing the highlights, the effect of that advice, depending on the lighting, may still be that you generally underexpose and have the bulk of your information to the left! So ETTR for the Monochrom isn't applied to the same values as you'd use for perhaps a Nikon, and equally you wouldn't transpose Nikon values onto an Olympus etc.

 

If you are always finding yourself in harsh light with very bright sun and deep shadows consider lowering your highlight clipping setting in your Monochrom. I have mine set to 98% for the highlights, but I'm in the UK, so you could perhaps set it to 95% and this would give you an earlier warning of blown highlights when the red highlight clipping warning flashes while reviewing an image. It acts as an indication to reduce exposure without actually taking the job out of your hands. The other thing to consider is how much exposure compensation you dial in by default. My saved settings have -1/3 stop under exposure as a datum point, but then I vary it depending on the situation.

 

The couple of images you posted above are a step forward, you've avoided the HDR effect in your street scene and now you have some proper natural deep shadows. It's good work.

 

Steve

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Hay Steve.

 

It is what annoys me when advice becomes pedantic and thrown into a conversation like a mantra. Yes, 'Expose to the Right' is technically correct, but all it means is expose as far as possible to the right of the histogram before blowing the highlights, the effect of that advice, depending on the lighting, may still be that you generally underexpose and have the bulk of your information to the left! So ETTR for the Monochrom isn't applied to the same values as you'd use for perhaps a Nikon, and equally you wouldn't transpose Nikon values onto an Olympus etc.

 

If you are always finding yourself in harsh light with very bright sun and deep shadows consider lowering your highlight clipping setting in your Monochrom. I have mine set to 98% for the highlights, but I'm in the UK, so you could perhaps set it to 95% and this would give you an earlier warning of blown highlights when the red highlight clipping warning flashes while reviewing an image. It acts as an indication to reduce exposure without actually taking the job out of your hands. The other thing to consider is how much exposure compensation you dial in by default. My saved settings have -1/3 stop under exposure as a datum point, but then I vary it depending on the situation.

 

The couple of images you posted above are a step forward, you've avoided the HDR effect in your street scene and now you have some proper natural deep shadows. It's good work.

 

Steve

Hay Steve,

I don't have my camera with me right now, but from what you are saying there is a setting in camera that you can set to show the clippings...right? is it in the main menu or the settings menu? And seeing as I live in Asia I guess 95% would be a good starting point?.............this setting doesn't effect the exposure does it, I will still need to dial in say -1 stop during the daytime and -1/2 a stop at night

Thanks

 

Neil

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

A couple of Nepalese kids shot out in the sticks of Nepal with my MM and 90mm APO

 

By the way to everyone in this thread..... I am now using dials in Lightroom that I have never used before especially the red and blue clippings function in the histogram..... god that makes it easy...................same with SEP I am now making small adjustments in the presets rather than going with whatever it gives me............so thanks for helping me with this

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[A miller]

It is what annoys me when advice becomes pedantic and thrown into a conversation like a mantra. Yes, 'Expose to the Right' is technically correct, but all it means is expose as far as possible to the right of the histogram before blowing the highlights, the effect of that advice, depending on the lighting, may still be that you generally underexpose and have the bulk of your information to the left! So ETTR for the Monochrom isn't applied to the same values as you'd use for perhaps a Nikon, and equally you wouldn't transpose Nikon values onto an Olympus etc.

 

 

Fwiw, I would clarify that each of the unedited files that I shared followed this exposure workflow exactly.  The files were pushed as far to the "right" as possible before blowing highlights (which I call ETTL, but it is really all semantics in the end).  Seeing how horribly underexposed the files seem to be highlights (pun intended) the anomaly of how the MM (at least the first version) needs to be exposed.  

[Jeff S]

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It is what annoys me when advice becomes pedantic and thrown into a conversation like a mantra. Yes, 'Expose to the Right' is technically correct, but all it means is expose as far as possible to the right of the histogram before blowing the highlights, the effect of that advice, depending on the lighting, may still be that you generally underexpose and have the bulk of your information to the left! So ETTR for the Monochrom isn't applied to the same values as you'd use for perhaps a Nikon, and equally you wouldn't transpose Nikon values onto an Olympus etc.

 

 

Of course things aren't that simple.  My statements were intentionally an oversimplification to help Neil understand the basic premise here, which is that it's safer to underexpose than to overexpose with the MM, especially if one doesn't understand the nuances.

 

ETTR, as you probably well know, still evokes controversy, even from some far more knowledgeable than I about all-things-digital, including our own Sandy, as well as Ctein over at TOP.  My intent isn't to get into another discussion here (there's enough of that), but for those interested, here are a couple of articles (with links to subsequent follow-ups) that present the counter-argument to ETTR, even when at times done 'correctly' (meaning when highlights aren't blown)….

 

http://chromasoft.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-expose-to-right-is-just-plain-wrong.html

 

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/10/expose-to-the-right-is-a-bunch-of-bull.html

 

Jeff

Edited May 6, 2015 by Jeff S

[MarkP]

I think that the most important advice here, from Jeff and Steve is to expose correctly - ie to get the best histogram possible with the widest range of data without blowing highlights (specular excluded).

 

Exposing too far to the right will also compromise the extraordinary tonal range possible from Monochrom files even though so much can be pulled from the depths of the shadows. Here, the in-camera raw histogram is really our friend. I agree with setting the clipping indicator to 98-99% to give some more leeway. 

 

If pressed for time I'd just expose a bit to the right to cover myself, where I have the time I have no hesitation in chimping to optimise the histogram/exposure.

[A miller]

I think that the most important advice here, from Jeff and Steve is to expose correctly - ie to get the best histogram possible with the widest range of data without blowing highlights (specular excluded).

 

With all respect to everyone, I disagree with this as a general matter and think that normal conventions of "correct exposure" are not applicable (or at least not always applicable) to the MM. 

 

The unedited files that I shared last night most certainly do NOT reflect "correct" exposure for the entire scene per normal textbook exposure conventions, but do reflect the farthest to the right that the scenes could be pushed to avoid blowing highlights.  So in a way the "correct exposure" rule for the MM is really limited to correctly exposing for the highlights (like slide film, which I thnk most of us would agree on), which is NOT textbook correct exposure per normal conventions such as the zone system, which relies on the ability to extract detail from highlights.

Edited May 6, 2015 by A miller

[asiafish]

I'll echo what others have said. Filters on the lens (I use yellow most of the time and always indoors, orange for city shots outside. I even leave the yellow filter on at night unless light is EXTREMELY low.

 

Expose for the highlights. There is a wealth of information in those shadows.

 

Minimal post. I often just boost exposure (because I underexpose in camera) and then pull the black point.

 

Result is stunning monochrome images.

[jaapv]

I think that the most important advice here, from Jeff and Steve is to expose correctly - ie to get the best histogram possible with the widest range of data without blowing highlights (specular excluded).

 

Exposing too far to the right will also compromise the extraordinary tonal range possible from Monochrom files even though so much can be pulled from the depths of the shadows. Here, the in-camera raw histogram is really our friend. I agree with setting the clipping indicator to 98-99% to give some more leeway. 

 

If pressed for time I'd just expose a bit to the right to cover myself, where I have the time I have no hesitation in chimping to optimise the histogram/exposure.

I fully agree, but I would like to expand the definition of "specular highlights" to "irrelevant highlights"

[250swb]

 

I don't have my camera with me right now, but from what you are saying there is a setting in camera that you can set to show the clippings...right? is it in the main menu or the settings menu? And seeing as I live in Asia I guess 95% would be a good starting point?.............this setting doesn't effect the exposure does it, I will still need to dial in say -1 stop during the daytime and -1/2 a stop at night

Thanks

 

Neil

 

It is in the main menu, the lower the number you set for highlights the more warning you get of impending clipping when you review an image. But like Jaap says, some blown highlights are irrelevant, and some just can't be eliminated because they are so bright neither you nor the camera would ever be able to see any detail in them anyway. Actually I don't mind a blown highlight if it reinforces the idea of searing light, I do mind them if they are just sloppy metering, and with good photographers it is evident in the image what was intended.

 

Steve

[pico]

I downloaded Neil's (NDWgolf)  sample  DNG file. An aside first - WOW it looks like a scanned, fine grain medium format image! I gotta get that camera!

 

Now, about the image - gee whiz, could anyone choose a more difficult scene? A shiny black car at high noon on a light gravel road next to the beach with an almost clear sky? In order not to tamper too much, all I did was a modest recovery of the highlight texture in ACR, and slight curve adjustment to retain the blackest black (the shadows in the car's reflection).

 

The image is here. Considerably downsized for quick loading.

 

Neil, that is a scene that would be perfect for a mild to medium yellow filter.

A polarizing filter could be interesting. It could cut the reflections

of the windshield, darken the sky, but it would do nothing for the car

because polarizers don't work with sheet metal reflections.

 

... pretty young lady, too

 

Oh! Neil, your steering wheel is on the wrong side.

Edited May 6, 2015 by pico

[tookaphotoof]

I downloaded the file and I now desperately want an M246 file at low iso, as well, too compare.

But maybe if someone has both cameras they can make 2 or 3 photos with both (same lens)? 

 

This is what I got out of it: 

 

Oh Neil, clean your bloody sensor. I had to remove a dozen spots.  

Edited May 6, 2015 by tookaphotoof

[Bill Livingston]

I would probably have straightened the horizon as well... The car would look even more dramatic with the new angle to viewer that would result

 

REALLY interesting and informative thread though... One of the most enjoyable threads I have read on here... And the support from everyone shows the forum at its very best... excellent input from everyone involved.

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

 

 

 

Oh Neil, clean your bloody sensor. I had to remove a dozen spots.  

Will do, just need to get home.................. heading that way tomorrow :)

[tookaphotoof]

Never came to my mind to fix the horizon Bill. Maybe I was giving too much attention to his lady? 

[Jeff S]

I think that the most important advice here, from Jeff and Steve is to expose correctly - ie to get the best histogram possible with the widest range of data without blowing highlights (specular excluded).

 

 

Not quite what I said…the key is to know your camera, know your exposure conditions and decide how you would like your file to render out of camera.  Different folks will employ different tactics, including as Jaap/Steve say, letting some specular highlights blow.

 

And even then, there are important decisions that have to be made in PP, which has also been discussed here.  Without meaning any offense to A. Miller, for instance, I like many of the qualities in the 'before' skyline/water image (not however as a final product) than I do of the 'after' rendering.  That's just my taste, and certainly no reflection (no pun intended) on A. Miller's approach….it's his photo to interpret.  But that does illustrate that there's a lot more to this stuff than the technical how-to piece.  As I wrote earlier, the more important decisions are stylistic and aesthetic…the rest is just a means to get 'there'.  And, for me, the 'there' is a print, not a screen shot….and that's another layer of discussion, no matter the camera used.

 

Jeff

[A miller]

No offense taken, Jeff.  All of the photos that I shared have an HDR look that is not for everyone.  It's not even for me, hence the sale of my MM and shift to film.  I find that film grounds me much better in terms of the dodging and burning, and doesn't let me get carried away with an over-the-top rendering and keeps me true to the traditional aesthetics of photography.

 

Having said all of this, I posted my dirty laundry (which did take some courage but did so in the spirit of trying to be helpful) simply to illustrate the power of the shadow detail and how far one can push the limits with files that start out the way mine did.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[otto.f]

I'm taking my time with the MM to come to satisfying results. You seem to be in a hurry Neil, take your time, B&W is, more than color, a matter of growing and developing your own taste about it. 

I see some horrible over PP-ed examples here and elsewhere of images from a Monochrome that seem to be attractive at first sight but are quite kitschy and boring on a long term basis. Structures in SEP is highly suspect for me there. 

You seem contradictory about SEP. In your first post you say never use it, later on you come up with: always choose Structure (which makes me think where do I have a Leica for, doesn't it overrule all the unique characteristics of Leica lenses?). Besides, it depends totally on the scene whether Structure is a good choice. More often I prefer Ilford 50 PAN F though. I began using SEP relatively late for my Monochrome shots, because I still see CaptureOne as a very good converter also for M9onochrome shots