CEO Alfred Schopf and future products

[lct]

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RF + FF vs Mirrorless + APS

[rosuna]

So this camera is for Leica stores only and won't be sold on-line or at other camera shops where it will be publicly reviewed and compared to other brands? Knowledgeable enthusiasts are not included in the intended market? Are there enough Leica stores for this strategy? Since the X-Vario and EVF are around $3300 I'd be surprised that a Leica body with built in hi res EVF and interchangeable lenses will sell for $2500 with a kit zoom unless it is made by Panasonic or another subcontractor.

 

I don't know how many X Vario cameras are sold in Leica Stores and how many in other dealers. But it is too expensive for non-rich potential buyers considering an investment of, say, $3300 (body and lens), even if you are brand-sensitive. Leica knows better.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[rosuna]

RF + FF vs Mirrorless + APS

 

The Sony camera changed that already, for the industry.

 

That seems to be Leica's plan though. Only the brand would make this work.

 

Mirrorless + APS systems are now under serious competitive pressure.

[jaapv]

I’m not so sure about that - full-frame and APS DSLRs exist side by side, why should it be different for mirrorless. Most customers are not Internet photo fanatics and hardly know - or have no interest in - the difference between full frame or APS.

[rosuna]

I’m not so sure about that - full-frame and APS DSLRs exist side by side, why should it be different for mirrorless.

 

Right, but in different price ranges.

 

The problem comes when the FF DSLR or mirrorless set the same price of the top class APS-C cameras.

 

Leica will set a very high price for the new camera.

[AlanG]

I’m not so sure about that - full-frame and APS DSLRs exist side by side, why should it be different for mirrorless. Most customers are not Internet photo fanatics and hardly know - or have no interest in - the difference between full frame or APS.

 

I think the APS cameras will sell well, just not at high prices because high end models mostly appeal to well informed buyers... precisely the kind who are excited about the A7.

 

Aren't the DSLR APS cameras almost all lower end models now? Are Canon and Nikon designing many new higher end APS lenses? Mirrorless APS cameras were selling at a premium price to cheap APS DSLRs. Now some of the mirrorless prices are coming down. Providing more pressure, Canon, Nikon and Sony recently introduced new lower priced FF models.

 

I think Leica is in a tough position to appeal to a much wider market with high end products. Their strategy of re-branding Panasonic models is sensible if that makes them significant money. I don't know if Leica has a strategy to produce competitively priced cameras of any type in house. OK maybe the S2 and Sinar models compete against Phase One, Hasselblad, Alpa and Linhof.

 

As I stated before, I think they need to put emphasis on designing a new AF full frame system that is backwardly compatible with M lenses. I can't see where else they can go with the M... just keep refining it a bit more every few years without adding any significant features or lenses? I think Leica enthusiast will pay high prices for lenses for such a camera. I can't say if they will pay much of a premium for an APS version

 

Sony recently added a Zeiss 16-70 f4 to its APS E lens line up. I bet the FF 24-70 F4 lens will sell better going forward even though it is heavier, costs $200 more, and has less reach. Both lenses can be used on FF (16-70 is cropped) or APS bodies.

Edited December 2, 2013 by AlanG

[NJH]

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If the next M was much like the current M but had some of the following:

- Lighter weight and perhaps a tad smaller like M6/MP

- Another jump in DR, more pleasing highlight roll off like film perhaps

- Multiple viewfinder magnifications

etc. etc.

 

Why on earth wouldn't it sell? I find it somewhat strange that on a forum dedicated to perhaps the most stubbornly traditional camera manufacturer in history people seem to want them to make a radical change into a new direction. Personally I can't see Leica doing it even if they wanted to and given how successful the company is why on earth would they bet the house on a venture that would pit them head to head with the big volume manufacturers. It would be commercial suicide plain and simple.

[IkarusJohn]

I don't really see a market for a high priced, high quality, APS-C interchangeable lens, red dot camera. Makes no sense to me.

 

I do understand putting an M mount on the X2, but it's an odd product.

 

The buyers would have to be sufficiently into photography to want interchangeable prime lenses (maybe a collection of M lenses?) instead of the zoom on the X-vario, not want an M(240), AND be blind to the limitations of not having a FF sensor.

 

There are so many alternatives in APS-C out there, I don't see the point. Unless, of course, the X2 and X-vario are flying out the door like hot cakes, and Leica needs to cash in on this burgeoning market sector :-)

 

It isn't happening here. China?

[AlanG]

If the next M was much like the current M but had some of the following:

- Lighter weight and perhaps a tad smaller like M6/MP

- Another jump in DR, more pleasing highlight roll off like film perhaps

- Multiple viewfinder magnifications

etc. etc.

 

 

I can't say what they might do for other markets but evolving the M is a given. Wouldn't it also have a better EVF and faster live view shooting? It is the mirrorless camera characteristics that will most likely be worked on. I doubt if they will come up with a new rangefinder design at this point. I could be wrong since they've had 60 years to think about how to improve it.

 

So is it that big a stretch for there to also be a model that has a built in EVF and no rangefinder? And is it such an additional reach that they'd make a line of AF lenses for it considering at one time they made an entire SLR system alongside the M.

[rosuna]

 

There are so many alternatives in APS-C out there, I don't see the point. Unless, of course, the X2 and X-vario are flying out the door like hot cakes, and Leica needs to cash in on this burgeoning market sector :-)

 

It isn't happening here. China?

 

It is not a geographic problem, but an income level one. I don't know if traditional dealers sell many X2 and X Vario cameras, but the people coming to Leica Stores is all different and these buyers have a different set of preferences and valuation of money. That is why Leica Stores exist! Just for catching this people! They never would go to a normal photo store (or Amazon).

 

I don't know if all this make sense or not. Only Leica knows. But cameras like the X2 and X Vario were designed for testing the waters.

[algrove]

But anyone going into any store usually has looked at some type of camera online and has an idea of what they want.

[rosuna]

But anyone going into any store usually has looked at some type of camera online and has an idea of what they want.

 

They want Prada, Hermés, Leica... they know the brand. The people coming to these stores don't mind to expend $2,000, $3,000 or $5,000 in a purse, camera or shoes. They want the best, an exclusive product.

 

Selling products to this public maybe very profitable, but the problem is you cannot sell the same product in two different places for two different prices, and the correct price and general design of the product for one type of public is unadequate for another.

[jankap]

+1, jan

[stevelap]

For what it's worth

 

43 Rumors

[rosuna]

For what it's worth

 

43 Rumors

 

I cannot see the interest of Panasonic in a new APS-C system... AND a 4/3 system...

 

Are they thinking on abandoning 4/3?

[rosuna]

Is this coming?

 

http://www.43rumors.com/hot-news-panasonic-and-fuji-developed-the-first-organic-sensor/

[mjh]

Is this coming?

 

Hot news! Panasonic and Fuji developed the first organic sensor! | 43 Rumors

If everything goes according to plan we may see a prototype on display at next year’s photokina.

[michaelwj]

then how do they justify the price of the M system?

 

Have they ever justified it?

 

It's always been expensive, and we now have an additional digital cost involved.

 

1954- M3 ~ $250 average salary ~$4700 = 5.3%

2013- M ~ $6950 (MP $4995) average salary ~$69000 = 10% (7% for the MP)

 

I remember reading that when Capa got his Contax kit, it cost the same as a car. An equivilent 3 lens leica kit would cost a small cars worth today, so things don't change that much.

 

Michael

[spylaw4]

stevelap beat me to it - I was going to post the 4/3 Rumours article - which they give 80-99% verity to, incidentally.

 

There's also this extract from Mirrorless Rumours (I've left out the photo that we've all seen ages ago). I don't agree with all of it, especially the latter bit.

 

It’s really not a surprise but at least we can confirm it via our own very trusted sources. Leica’s new mirrorless system will not be part of any current mount. Leica has chosen to go their own route and will offer their very own mount. The cameras will be built by Panasonic and what remains to be answered yet is if Panasonic will join the system with their own branded cameras too. I think it would be good for Leica to have them onboard. it could be a remake of the Oly-Pana partnership that made MFT that successful. But I still think the chances stay very low for this. Probably Leica want to give away their “exclusive” character?

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mjh]

There's also this extract from Mirrorless Rumours …

 

“(…) The cameras will be built by Panasonic (…)

So with the CEO being on record claiming that the cameras will be manufactured in Germany and Mirrorless Rumors saying that Panasonic will be building those cameras, this raises the question whether Panasonic will start manufacturing cameras in Germany …