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CEO Alfred Schopf and future products


hoppyman

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CEO Alfred Schopf visited Australia recently and provided an interview to Paul Burrows, editor of 'Camera' magazine here

 

.............All direct transcriptions from parts of answers by CEO:.............When asked will there ever be a Leica compact system camera:

 

"We will have one, definitely. And it will, of course, be quite different to M system. We want to have autofocus with such a system and we may well have an APSC size sensor rather than a bigger one......."

 

............"

 

photokina 2014 could be interesting :).

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CEO Alfred Schopf visited Australia recently and provided an interview to Paul Burrows, editor of 'Camera' magazine here. It's a very good local publication and I thoroughly recommend this article (and the magazine) in their Nov/Dec 2013 issue to anyone who can obtain it.

You can get it as a digital edition apparently at

http://www.zinio.com/camera

 

I think that I can quote small portions of particular interest here without transgression. Perhaps the complete interview will become available?

 

All direct transcriptions from parts of answers by CEO:

 

..."to be honest, I'm not 100 percent sure where the D-SLR market is going to be in the future. The mirrorless cameras are coming on and on and on and I'm not entirely convinced that in ten years time we will have a D-SLR market"

 

When asked will there ever be a Leica compact system camera:

 

"We will have one, definitely. And it will, of course, be quite different to M system. We want to have autofocus with such a system and we may well have an APSC size sensor rather than a bigger one......."

 

Getting back to Leica's plans for a CSC, Alfred states:

"It will be a German built camera, however I'm not sure we can make all of the lenses made in Germany because we are talking about a different price range to M system so I could imagine that we do some fixed focal length lenses in Germany and maybe with the zooms we will co-operate with a partner"

He stresses that Leica won't be building on Panasonic's Micro Four Thirds format.

 

On film cameras, Alfred Schopf said:

"We are now the world's biggest manufacturer of film cameras on the planet- because we are the only one, more or less. As long as we get orders we will continue. At the moment we get between 600 and 700 orders per year............"

 

Any new system based on APS-C or M4/3 is a mistake at this moment. Really serious mistake. In this context a rebranding of Panasonic products is more reasonable because you reduce risks (but it is nasty and probably a disaster).

 

Sony new A7 and A7r have changed the market. You cannot sell an APS-C camera for $1500 anymore. The format size is the strongest sales argument.

 

Olympus is seriously worried because that is in the price frame of the new OM-D. Fujifilm is worried too (they are planning to release a full frame camera next year!). They both will face serious trouble next year. We will see cheaper and smaller reflex cameras with FF sensors from Canon and Nikon in the near future.

 

Where is the reasonable price range for an APS-C system by Leica? $1000? FF cameras will be there... next year (new Sony models, E mount).

 

Zeiss will release manual focus lenses for the new Sony system late in 2014, and the ZM line of lenses seems to be damned.

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On film cameras, Alfred Schopf said:

"We are now the world's biggest manufacturer of film cameras on the planet- because we are the only one, more or less. As long as we get orders we will continue. At the moment we get between 600 and 700 orders per year............"

 

6-700 film M's is good, but I think he's forgetting the LOMO people who probably sell 10 times that! Not to mention the other film cameras still made by the likes of Fuji and Nikon.

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Any new system based on APS-C or M4/3 is a mistake at this moment. Really serious mistake.

 

A relatively small company who has been investing in this idea for quite a few years is in a tricky situation. Do you scrap it all and start again with full frame in mind to keep up with the competition or do you forge ahead and get what you can out of what you have, make it a really good product (the X_Vario is a good example here, not utting edge but very capable) and build on it with the intentions of it becoming full frame eventually. I'm sure they have that full frame in mind in relation to where it could evolve.

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A relatively small company who has been investing in this idea for quite a few years is in a tricky situation. Do you scrap it all and start again with full frame in mind to keep up with the competition or do you forge ahead and get what you can out of what you have, make it a really good product (the X_Vario is a good example here, not utting edge but very capable) and build on it with the intentions of it becoming full frame eventually. I'm sure they have that full frame in mind in relation to where it could evolve.

 

The X Vario is just a camera, not a system with interchangeable lenses.

 

Any new APS-C system shipped today will be a failure.

 

Leica should have stopped any development in this direction months ago. It was a bad idea from the start.

 

The problem now is the Sonys, the specification and prices of those two cameras. I knew this will come, but how quickly Sony had perfectly mature and well designed products and the prices were a surprise to me. These new cameras are the point of reference in the market now.

 

None will spend 1500 euros in a m4/3 or APS-C camera now... in a few months not even 1000 euros.

 

You cannot develop a new system thinking on the conditions and circumstances of the present time, but thinking on the long term, two years ahead. That was Olympus's and Fujifilm's mistake.

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You cannot develop a new system thinking on the conditions and circumstances of the present time, but thinking on the long term, two years ahead. That was Olympus's and Fujifilm's mistake.

 

I will agree with you on the futility of m4/3 as a semi-pro/pro mirrorless system; however, what Fujifilm is doing can't be defined by the sensor format alone. Several years ago Fujifilm was partnered with Nikon for system cameras, and they were DSLRs. They retreated and went quiet for a number of years and now we understand that they were likely developing what we have as the X-system today. I would suggest that the X-trans sensor itself is differentiated enough through the use of a custom CFA and no AA filter to be distinct from the majority of APS-C sensors. Moreover, Fujifilm is known to produce excellent lenses and this is carried forward at a very friendly price point with the X-system. Lastly, the haptics of the X bodies surpass that of it's mirrorless peers, preferring tactile controls over buried menu systems.

 

When it comes to a Leica AF CSC, I really do believe the sensor will be run-of-the-mill, mainly because they are a conservative company, and their strengths have proven to be in glass and industrial design, not bleeding-edge sensor technology and software. I think an excellent sony APS-C sensor mated to Leica optics would yield exciting results. Furthermore, even if Leica were to launch a CSC body with APS-C, if the lenses were designed from the onset to cover a 35mm frame, then jumping to a FF CSC body with the same mount would be trivial.

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The X Vario is just a camera, not a system with interchangeable lenses.

 

Yes, obviously. But my point is while the camera is on paper, an average camera it is a good product that performs well within it's capabilities and people seems to like it. Which is much of a surprise to me as I thought it was useless.

 

 

None will spend 1500 euros in a m4/3 or APS-C camera now... in a few months not even 1000 euros

 

It's easy to think that, I agree. But by the same token, none will buy a Leica M over a Nikon D800 because the Nikon is 36MP and better IQ? Simple logic does not apply here. It is more complex. Different people want different things.

 

You cannot develop a new system thinking on the conditions and circumstances of the present time, but thinking on the long term, two years ahead. That was Olympus's and Fujifilm's mistake.

 

I would imagine Sony has had FF in mind all along. I am sure Leica have been developing this longer than two years as well. Just the same I would imagine Leica has FF in mind with this system eventually. Fuji will bring something out soon , I bet, they are renowned historically to milk the market with 'now' products and they have made a KILLING on the X System.

 

 

The problem now is the Sonys, the specification and prices of those two cameras. I knew this will come, but how quickly Sony had perfectly mature and well designed products and the prices were a surprise to me. These new cameras are the point of reference in the market now

 

You were surprised and so was everyone else. Some people said it wouldn't be done and other it wouldn't happen for 3-5 years. So if you were surprised, by the same token you would expect other people, brands and designers be just as surprised, hence the situation they find them selves in. Sony have R+D backing, clout, resources, staff and know how that other companies can only dream of. It s not a case wether hardware is possible, but wether or not the market will take to it.

Edited by Paul J
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And none will buy a Leica M over a Nikon D800 because the Nikon is 36MP and better IQ? Simple logic does not apply here. It is more complex.

 

It is not the same problem. It is not a question of IQ alone. All systems based on APS-C or M4/3 will suffer an increasing pressure in prices, from Sony, with two cameras of similar prices and sizes, and higher IQ potential.

 

Anyway format size is about marketing potential. People ready to spend 2000 euros in a camera is not the same people willing to spend 600 euros. Sony goes for the first group and will send the competitors to the second one. Sony provides the exact message those people want to hear, and you cannot match the offer with a smaller format, not even reducing prices.

 

Fuji will bring something out soon , I bet, they are renowned historically to milk the market with 'now' products and they have made a KILLING on the X System.

 

Fujifilm will make silly things, accelerating the deterioration of the market position of the X system.

 

So if you were surprised, by the same token you would expect other people, brands and designers be just as surprised, hence the situation they find them selves in.

 

They have more information than I have, for sure.

 

Sony is menacing with a new E mount 24x36 camera next year, at a lower price!

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Isn't competition fun for consumers, prosumers, pros!

 

It's probably a good bet that FF camera prices will limit what can be charged for cameras with smaller sensors unless there are other distinguishing market factors.

That's fine with me.

 

For me image quality is just one factor in evaluating cameras.

Sensors have already gotten so good that other factors are being considered by many folks.

Factors, such as lens sizes, differences in DOF characteristics, etc become important as well.

 

Of course, if you want to shoot fast sport action in a dimly lit arena you still have to use FF, at least for now.

Edited by k-hawinkler
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Fujifilm will make silly things, accelerating the deterioration of the market position of the X system.

 

I assume you're referring to oddball X-system bodies like the X-A1 and M1, along with the XC lenses? Sony tries the same shenanigans with NEX, providing both flagship and downmarket products under the same moniker. I wholly disagree with that - it's confusing and devaluates the brand. In some respects, I understand that these cheapened variations are intended to recover losses from point & shoots, but at some point you need to cut your losses and retreat from the segment. Cellphones are crushing the point & shoot market and that's not going to change.

 

I think that if they need to release these cheapened products, it should be done with little fan fair and clearly differentiated from flagship products...

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6-700 film M's is good.....

 

More than good !!! That means around 2,5/3 per workday... and of course they are all sold or next to (I doubt they force dealers to stock film Ms) : there is still HOPE in a world in which, any day that God donates to us, 2-3 persons do unpack their brand new film Leica.... :)

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6-700 film M's is good, but I think he's forgetting the LOMO people who probably sell 10 times that! Not to mention the other film cameras still made by the likes of Fuji and Nikon.

 

James I think it is a mistake to interpret the remarks too literally or without humour. I doubt though that Leica Camera considers LOMO as a competitor for film camera sales ;-) Perhaps it was Zeiss (who have discontinued theirs) he had in mind. I would guess that disposable one use cameras are the biggest film products now actually.

In any case the remark included "more or less"

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Leica Camera doesn't agree, clearly. Impossible to please everyone of course. They seem to be doing very well under Alfred Schopf's stewardship, I think.

 

On this forum at least some people have been calling out for something below the M range and with an EVF to make it smaller too.

In fact in the full interview what is discussed is the largest sensor in the smallest body (from the S down) and emphasis on optical and image quality. Also the full sentence included "may well have an 'APS-C' size sensor rather than a bigger one"

 

There's a trend to interpret and dissect any comments released like this, down to the meaning of translations of individual words sometimes.

 

I'll approach the interviewer, with whom I am acquainted to see if the complete interview could be made available on-line. Perhaps Leica Camera will publish it though. Maybe on their blog?

Edited by hoppyman
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If Leica is thinking about an APS-C sensor today it shows how out of it they truly are.

 

I agree although I prefer the size of a Nex 6 and its smaller lenses to the A7r for a portable small system to supplement my pro gear for my personal fun photography. Considering a Nex 6 and compact 16-50 is only $800 and a Nex 3N with that lens is only $450, I can't see where Leica could fit in even though I see a role for APS and M4/3rds.

 

Since I use that camera for convenience and accept the trade-off of the lens, I would go for the A7r or DSLR system if I needed better quality. And I want a camera that is inexpensive enough to not worry about abusing it. Thus the appeal of an expensive APS system is lost on me.

 

So that leaves Leica to compete head to head with Sony and also with others (soon?) in the FF mirrorless market. I just don't see where they are going to get the technology to do that. As it is Sony can probably undercut all other makes due to its vertical integration. Sony obviously has top camera designers and is running on all cylinders making good lenses, sensors, LCDs, EVFs, processors, etc. Sony has come out with some very interesting designs in several market segments and hopefully is profiting from all of that. I can't see them lifting their foot from the gas pedal.

 

And if Leica will have others build its lenses to a lower price point, how are they going to be different from other lenses built to those prices by or for other brands? I don't see Leica suddenly making a bunch of FF autofocus lenses themselves anyway... regardless of price. But perhaps they have to figure out a way.

 

So that brings me back to the M and various thoughts and suggestions that I and others have had. If they want to broaden their appeal they probably can't do that by making a new system. I think they would need to make an AF version of the M that also can use M lenses. Maybe this has a rangefinder or maybe a built in EVF, or two models. Maybe it has a way to swap between EVF and a rangefinder or some kind of hybrid viewfinder. And if they could make all of the electronics in a single module that could be upgradeable, all of these things might differentiate the Leica enough and assure buyers to justify maintaining the high prices. However considering an A7r is only $2300, it is hard for me to see how Leica will be able to sell an electronic module upgrade for a comparable price.

 

I'm glad it isn't my problem.

Edited by AlanG
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Any new system based on APS-C or M4/3 is a mistake at this moment. Really serious mistake. In this context a rebranding of Panasonic products is more reasonable because you reduce risks (but it is nasty and probably a disaster).

 

Sony new A7 and A7r have changed the market. You cannot sell an APS-C camera for $1500 anymore. The format size is the strongest sales argument.

 

Olympus is seriously worried because that is in the price frame of the new OM-D. Fujifilm is worried too (they are planning to release a full frame camera next year!). They both will face serious trouble next year. We will see cheaper and smaller reflex cameras with FF sensors from Canon and Nikon in the near future.

 

Where is the reasonable price range for an APS-C system by Leica? $1000? FF cameras will be there... next year (new Sony models, E mount).

 

Zeiss will release manual focus lenses for the new Sony system late in 2014, and the ZM line of lenses seems to be damned.

 

Sony has the sensors. A lot of the rest is meh, particularly the lenses when compared with Leica. A camera system is about optimizing all variables which make it, rather than maximizing one, which in the case of Sony is the sensor. Sonys A7® are the Mustang Shelbys of cameras. A huge engine, the rest is not for connoisseurs, they still prefer Porsche`s 911. There is a market for an outstanding compact Leica system built around a state of the art aps-c sensor.

Give me a Leica compact system with the Foveon Merrill aps-c sensor inside and FF Bayer will be in trouble.

Edited by Ecaton
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I believe Leica can, and will, sell an APS-C Mirrorless System Camera. I also believe they can, and will, charge a premium. Finally I believe photographers will buy into this system. Comparing Leica to Sony is simply silly. Please give your heads a shake. Not everyone wants a full frame sensor, even if you do.

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