Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 30, 2009 Share #61 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yep, the quoted prices are about what was to be expected; no surprises here. Some daydreamers’ bubbles have burst, but that’s life. No, I cannot afford an S2, but I knew that beforehand. Sorry they are not even reasonable close in price. Way beyond any daydreamer pricing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted July 30, 2009 Share #62 Posted July 30, 2009 Double digit percentage means: 10% or more. So they aim at at least 1000 items out of the total market of 10.000. I do not recall if this is per year or cumulative, I believe it is the latter. Well on the one hand I'm truly relieved by hearing these figures, on the other hand I'm totally bewildered by the R&D, marketing, and worldwide support network that's gonna go into 1000 cameras. Anyway, my interest in the camera amounts in total to wanting it to be a success so that the M-system survives and prospers, nothing more. I was never in the market for one, so I don't care how much it costs, so long as others think it's saleable. My surprise is that given that projected sales figure it should cost double or triple this amount. Anyway, let's hope this one turns out okay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted July 30, 2009 Share #63 Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) They didn't hope for 10.000 That is a myth. They hope for a double-digit percentage of the market for this kind of camera, which they put at 10.000.... So- I guess Leica will be well satisfied if they sell 2000 units over the complete production run of the camera. 2000 over the production span of the camera means that they will be bankrupt. There are more numbers floating around which say: only 2000 = BIG TROUBLE, 5000 = SERIOUS TROUBLE, ... 1000 per year would keep the S2 in business for quite some time. Edited July 30, 2009 by zapp Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 30, 2009 Share #64 Posted July 30, 2009 My guess is that the turnover per year they are aiming at would be between 500 and 1000 S2s + a few lenses @ say 30keuro average, i.e. a turnover in the 15 - 30 Meuro ballpark. At the current level about 10-20% of their turnover. That seems more or less realistic. Also depends a bit on how large the dealers cut is (20% or so?). The rest comes from the M8 + lenses, the panaleica's, and the binoculars etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 30, 2009 Share #65 Posted July 30, 2009 If they sell 1000 and the out of the factory door price is say £11000 then that is £11 million per year. Add another £6 million for lenses and other stuff, that is around £17 million lets round it up to £20 million or 23 million euros, take out their costs and does that not leave a healthy profit? I'm sure the camera will be able to make wonderful images although it will be competing with established systems, also without an AA filter. Unfortunately I wont be helping them in this endeavour - as I did with the M8, as I just could not imagine carrying £20000 worth of camera/lens around with me. The cost of the M8 +2 lenses at £7000 is already quite worrying. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2009 Share #66 Posted July 30, 2009 2000 over the production span of the camera means that they will be bankrupt. There are more numbers floating around which say: only 2000 = BIG TROUBLE, 5000 = SERIOUS TROUBLE, ...1000 per year would keep the S2 in business for quite some time. Interesting numbers - especially as they are floating- insubstantial. The projected figure of a double-digit percentage of 10.000 for the total run is an official Leica statement, which carries a bit more weight I would say.I would remind you that Leica sold about 3500 DMRs, which was even more of a pink elephant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 30, 2009 Share #67 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am afraid the whole system does not look very good value to me, more the body than the lenses. For slightly less than the body price on its own, I recently bought my wife a brand new Ford Focus Coupé Convertible CC3 with 2 litre engine. It makes the £2500 I paid for my M8 in early 2007 seem like small beer. I cannot believe it costs 6 times as much to make the S2 and if it does, then IMHO Leica made a very dubious decision to start or continue with the development of this system. By the time you have the body plus say 4 lenses, this is an investment of around £30,000 in a system from a company whose future has just one or two question marks hanging over it. Sorry Leica, I think you have priced it wrongly or developed a camera for a market that is just not there, no matter how good it is. I had hoped for a price around £9,000 or less for the body. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 30, 2009 Share #68 Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Spanish prices: La lista de precios aproximados quedaría así: Leica S2-“Platinum”: 22.200 € (*) Leica S2: 18.600 € Summarit-S 35 mm f/2,5 Asph: 4.200 € Summarit-S 35 mm f/2,5 Asph CS: 4.900 € Summarit-S 70 mm f/2,5 Asph: 3.600 € Summarit-S 70 mm f/2,5 Asph CS: 4.680 € Apo-Tele-Elmar-S 180 mm f/3,5: 5.280 € Apo-Tele-Elmar-S 180 mm f/3,5 CS: 6.000 € Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm f/2,5: 5.280 € Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm f/2,5 CS: 6.000 € Empuñadura Booster-S: 990 € Cargador de baterías: 300 € http://www.dslrmagazine.com/profesional/camaras-para-formato-medio/leica-s2-disponible-en-oc-2.html . Edited July 30, 2009 by rosuna Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaS2 Posted July 30, 2009 Share #69 Posted July 30, 2009 1.The prices of the lenses is a welcome relief. 2. The price of the body is what they said was the target. Guy, go on vacation happy that you won't have to replace your current system. Me, my order is in. I expect this to compete in quality with a 65+ at much less cost, and water resistant too. For those of you worried this will hurt the company, they have the bankroll to wait five years for a profit. I suggest you all go back to the M8 forum until the images are available or Guy returns from vacation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waileong Posted July 30, 2009 Share #70 Posted July 30, 2009 Has nobody heard of "street price"? It's way different from "suggested retail price", which is all that the press release says. And even better than "street" price is the "gray" market price, and the "ebay" price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted July 30, 2009 Share #71 Posted July 30, 2009 The prices look reasonable. I even expected them to be steeper. The 4 lenses 1 body system cost almost the same ( or even less) as a new Sinar-M + 4 AF lenses + AF Reflex Module + eMotion 75 (33 mpx). IMHO the new S2 should be compared with the best (if exotic) Digital MF System, such a Sinar-m with their outstanding Zeiss lenses. I see no sense in comparing the S2 with the older 31mpx Mamiya and H systems. Yevgeny Moscow Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted July 30, 2009 Share #72 Posted July 30, 2009 If they sell 1000 and the out of the factory door price is say £11000 then that is £11 million per year. Add another £6 million for lenses and other stuff, that is around £17 million lets round it up to £20 million or 23 million euros, take out their costs and does that not leave a healthy profit? I'm sure the camera will be able to make wonderful images although it will be competing with established systems, also without an AA filter. Unfortunately I wont be helping them in this endeavour - as I did with the M8, as I just could not imagine carrying £20000 worth of camera/lens around with me. The cost of the M8 +2 lenses at £7000 is already quite worrying. Jeff £20 million turnaround will not pay a lot of workers or pay for the develpoment costs of the S2. Good news for the smaller volume model, it will be needed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 30, 2009 Share #73 Posted July 30, 2009 I'm sorry Wison but £9000 for the body was simply wishful thinking. Leica stated from the beginning that their target was the €15,000 to €20,000 bracket. Well they have hit it and, as others have pointed out, the lens prices aren't that steep when compared to the high end competition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 30, 2009 Share #74 Posted July 30, 2009 I'm sorry Wison but £9000 for the body was simply wishful thinking. Leica stated from the beginning that their target was the €15,000 to €20,000 bracket. Well they have hit it and, as others have pointed out, the lens prices aren't that steep when compared to the high end competition. Steve, I don't think my hope was way out of line. I can buy a Hassleblad HD3-II with 80mm lens and 31MP back for £11,494 (incl. VAT). Although this is a bigger, heavier camera and not for me, some would argue that it is a more flexible/upgradable system. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0.95 Posted July 30, 2009 Share #75 Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) it says 18.600€ retail price in germany MEISTER CAMERA Hamburg: Produkte : Produkte[showUid]=8617&tx_commerce_pi1[catUid]=12&cHash=e8e1e23ef9 Edited July 30, 2009 by f0.95 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseelig Posted July 30, 2009 Share #76 Posted July 30, 2009 Well I wonder if this camera will sell much. Me I am glad I started buying contax 645 equipment. I have bought the 35 55 80 and 140 lenses and a body for $3200. No leaf shutter but so what.I can get a Rollei 6008 and a back with adapters for both bodies. I am a working pro but do not have clients to demand medium format. Good Luck Leica and I think I will get two M9's as fast as I can I wonder how long this company will be in business. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 30, 2009 Share #77 Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) The Austrian tv-station ORF quoted a Leica-spokesman that additional information about the S-System will be presented over the next few days. "Sorry they are not even reasonable close in price. Way beyond any daydreamer pricing." It's priced like a Phase One or Hasselblad. The retail price for the P40+-back in Germany is about as much as for the S2-body (I only found 25k$-US-Kit-price, where does 21,5k$ come from?). Of course we hoped for less, for a R10-replacement. Maybe they should have priced the body for production costs only to push the system more agressively - I don't want to speculate about such a delicate thing as internal calculations without having any insider-knowledge, nobody should do that! Edited July 30, 2009 by georg Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted July 30, 2009 Share #78 Posted July 30, 2009 The prices seem to be inline with what is no doubt a superlative system. However, the comments reflect the fact that very few people can afford cameras and lenses at these prices. The comments also reflect the fact that there are already excellent and advanced competitors in the medium format digital market. If, instead, they had announced a lower-priced compact M camera with a great sensor -- a digital CL -- I suspect there would be great excitement and many people would be pre-ordering it. Leica has no competitors in the digital rangefinder market, and a new small DRF would play to the company's strengths and likely expand the demand for its lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2009 Share #79 Posted July 30, 2009 I am afraid the whole system does not look very good value to me, more the body than the lenses. For slightly less than the body price on its own, I recently bought my wife a brand new Ford Focus Coupé Convertible CC3 with 2 litre engine. It makes the £2500 I paid for my M8 in early 2007 seem like small beer. I cannot believe it costs 6 times as much to make the S2 and if it does, then IMHO Leica made a very dubious decision to start or continue with the development of this system. By the time you have the body plus say 4 lenses, this is an investment of around £30,000 in a system from a company whose future has just one or two question marks hanging over it. Sorry Leica, I think you have priced it wrongly or developed a camera for a market that is just not there, no matter how good it is. I had hoped for a price around £9,000 or less for the body. Wilson Well, a blue oval is not a red dot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica Insider Posted July 30, 2009 Share #80 Posted July 30, 2009 Steve, I don't think my hope was way out of line. I can buy a Hassleblad HD3-II with 80mm lens and 31MP back for £11,494 (incl. VAT). Although this is a bigger, heavier camera and not for me, some would argue that it is a more flexible/upgradable system. Wilson Wilson, I have to agree with Steve. You need to compare Apples with Apples. The S2 is not competing against the Hassi HD3-II 31. The 31MP doesn't even come close to the resolution and image quality of the 37.5MP S2. Add the poor quality of the japanese made lenses that need to be corrected in post processing and you have two systems that do not play in the same league. On a general note: Everybody here will have to re-evaluate their negative comments once Leica publishes specs and performance proofs. It was not very clever to release the pricing without that being available, I have to admit. I can understand that people need to justify why they are holding on to their Phase and Hassi systems but that doesn't mean that there is no market for the S2 or that the pricing isn't competitive because most people that comment here have never even seen the camera or talked to the people that developed it. I was at photokina 2008 when it was launched and I was at PMA 2009 when the prototypes where presented. The Pros where in awe because the system is so much more compact, faster, easier to use than anything they had worked with. A Leica Insider Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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