Price premium for M11

[adan]

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1 hour ago, colint544 said:

1) the complex and costly rangefinder mechanism.

And as a part of that, the calibration of up to a dozen parts that are moving when operated. (roller, Rube-Goldberg/Heath-Robinson lever connections, RF prism).

Calibration is much easier when you can weld the parts in place once calibrated - but that can't be done with the M RF bits. They have to be free to move when focusing (or popping on a different lens), but not free enough to lose their calibration. Tricky.

Even 50 years ago, I figured out that a classic SLR only had two parts that had to calibrated (to the film plane), and only one of them actually moved in operation (the mirror), and even that only moved in binary fashion (all the way up, or all the way down - didn't matter precisely where it was in between).

The other part was the ground glass, which never moved at all.

Which is why everyone but Leica quit making interchangeable-lens RFs by 1970.

Mirrorless with focus-off-the-sensor is even simpler - although AF adds some calibration requirements in the lenses themselves.

[Smudgerer]

18 hours ago, Al Brown said:

M11 has the added extras lacking in SL3: freezing and file corrupting.

Yes they missed that so far in the SL3. Early days, but will they'll fix the lack of freezing and corrupt files with the next firmware upgrade.

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[M11 for me]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb lct:

3,395 EUR

🫣

[Malabito]

M has no competition in the market; nothing like it exists. It is an object of desire for many.

 

SL is just another mirrorless camera in a market with very strong competition. The SL doesn't offer anything different besides the Leica brand and, to some extent, handling.

 

M has no competition; SL has tons.

[matt736]

I cannot understand why the SL3 would under price even the SL2 at launch other than it probably has some internal parts shared with the Panasonic S5II.

I have the Q3 and even the auto focus has been likened to the Panasonic S5II.

Are all the parts of the SL3 made in house at the Leica factory or is it only the camera body as the sensor is shared with the M11 and Q3.

[costa43]

2 hours ago, matt736 said:

I cannot understand why the SL3 would under price even the SL2 at launch other than it probably has some internal parts shared with the Panasonic S5II.

I have the Q3 and even the auto focus has been likened to the Panasonic S5II.

Are all the parts of the SL3 made in house at the Leica factory or is it only the camera body as the sensor is shared with the M11 and Q3.

I would assume that certain internals are bought in from other countries. The assembly of course is made in Germany. I’m not sure if the Germans have a minimum percentage requirement for the “made in Germany’ label. There was talk of it happening at some point.

[Alberti]

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Let's look at it differently.

Our beloved lenses have great resolution with or without great contrast. (a question of personal preferences or something you can choose at a certain moment to fit the style).

Some lenses are fames for bokeh, others for micro-contrast. Still others for a fabulous colour differentiation. And - not always only the APO lenses; 70 years ago for instance most lenses in the ALPA kit were 'near' APO; I have two such old-school near-APO's too with a great rendition.

Up comes a sensor that provides a formula to bring out even more of those micro-details, the nano-colour shifts. I think that merits some extra cost.  🤑

Leica benefits largely now too, many users upgrade their lens kits. because they are confident there is something more for them.

[Jeff S]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:45 AM, colint544 said:

Seems we're all largely in agreement then. It's two main things:

1) the complex and costly rangefinder mechanism.

2) Leica can essentially price the M11 at whatever the market will bear, and that price is high due to a lack of genuine competition in the sector.

The second point, market competition, also relates to the need for lower SL lens prices relative to M lens counterparts.  SL lenses are huge in comparison, in part because it’s easier and less expensive to optimize optical performance without size constraints.  Peter Karbe further described (in a couple of long videos) how the whole production and manufacturing process was redesigned and standardized for the SL lenses to minimize errors, improve consistency and create economies. For example, the decision to standardize barrel size, and share various internal parts, for the SL APO primes reflects these objectives.

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

There's one other factor I've yet to see mentioned. Shared development cost across the Alliance. With the M, Leica is solely on its own. With the SL and perhaps Q to a degree, it can avoid large swaths of development cost by leaving things like CD/DFD/Multishot etal to Pano. 

[adan]

Twas ever thus.....😉

1985 pricing (France):

Leica M4-P (RF)  ...10 470 FF Summilux-M 1.4/50 ...7 820 FF

Leica M6 (RF) ....12 950 FF  Summicron-M 2/50 ...3 540 FF

Leica R4 (SLR) ....9 680 FF Summilux-R 1.4/50 ...9 165 FF

From our own pages....

[la1402]

On 3/8/2024 at 7:50 AM, irenedp said:

So no prime positioning, hence no prime price.

Except for just about 2500-3000€ uplift vs the technically better competition (R5, Z8, A7RV). You’ll always pay luxury tax with Leica. 

[irenedp]

4 hours ago, la1402 said:

Except for just about 2500-3000€ uplift vs the technically better competition (R5, Z8, A7RV). You’ll always pay luxury tax with Leica. 

I was thinking of the flagships like the Z9., A9 … 

[la1402]

3 hours ago, irenedp said:

I was thinking of the flagships like the Z9., A9 … 

🤣 What was the story with apples and oranges ... 

Edited March 12 by la1402

[fotofool]

On 3/8/2024 at 12:40 PM, Malabito said:

M has no competition; SL has tons.

Someone here knows something about the economics of pricing.  Others will comment too though.

[Cattoo]

There is something of a Veblen good aspect to M cameras but let's not forget that the M11 is a full frame mirrorless camera compressed into the dimensions of an M4 with the rangefinder mechanism to boot.  That certainly accounts for some of the cost.  

[BillCB]

I'll add one more thing - compactness. What other camera can compete in size - and quality? It's the primary reason this MF shooter bought Leica M. And do any of the mainstream cameras have such tiny lenses? 

[Jon Warwick]

15 hours ago, BillCB said:

I'll add one more thing - compactness. What other camera can compete in size - and quality? It's the primary reason this MF shooter bought Leica M. And do any of the mainstream cameras have such tiny lenses? 

Absolutely. It’s why I love the M system, and assume that’s a key part of the general desirability of the M. It’s remarkable how I see used Ms (at pretty full prices) still selling fairly quickly from UK dealers. I don’t see that with SLs, including the SL Summicron APOs. I once tried to sell my SL 75mm (at a lower than normal price) for 6 months via 2 very good dealers, and no luck!

[Kiwimac]

All I had to do was watch one launch video which showed flashing boxes and a trillion icons on screens and so on and that was it. 
 

I was instantly cured of wanting an SL3 because I instantly recalled the reason I craved M simplicity!