S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996

[locator]

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i don´t know if any of you agree, but this is my view at this point.

 

if you´re a professional it means you have to earn more money than you invest.

most professionals rent or lease their equipment in order to do this

 

the point is that you break the rule if you spend more on a system than you get from or for it.

for a professional, is "better" to get some lenses, even if they´re highly priced, because it´s an investment for the future, and a lower priced, upgradable body.

 

what makes no sense is to pay such much money for a body, that, remember, is not going to be upgradable (at least the sensor) as far as we know.

if you lease it, that is a way to do it, you´ll find yourself paying a leasing for a 18K/22K€ body (or two, then double the basis) during, let´s say, four years, and the next year ,bussines rules "suggest" to change for a new one (S3,S4.....)

 

most of you know that nowadays things have changed because of the economic "situation", and rates and fees have been lowered down a lot, so work is not "fluent" anymore.

 

if you´re a professional, you have to take much care of every step you take if you´re willing to keep yourself in this business, and you can afford (maybe) some disadvantages of other "not-as-good" systems if they lead you to the "thing", wich is to keep working

 

of course this does not affects other "groups" of buyers.if they have the money, they will get the gift.

 

what is quite surprising is that leica always said the S2 was "aimed for professionals". maybe they didn´t mean photographers

 

 

p.s. if leica does not sell as much as they think (and i hope they sell), will the S system suffer the same end as R??

[AlanG]

Wilson,

...The 31MP doesn't even come close to the resolution and image quality of the 37.5MP S2. Add the poor quality of the japanese made lenses that need to be corrected in post processing and you have two systems that do not play in the same league...

 

 

How do you know this?

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[mooky]

Reasonable means when compared to the last few years of R lens pricing which of course were not auto-focus. Glass you can use for a long time.

 

But with software technology and sensor technology changing all the time, it seems that a body should cost way less than what it is. I'd be shocked if it didn't perform to Leica standards, but I can't see how I'll be using it and Leica as mentioned is going for a different client.

 

I have nothing but good thoughts that this works well for Leica. But since the R system is my primary vehicle - I am more disappointed now that the R10 is 'kaput'.

[Leica Insider]

How do you know this?

 

Because I am an Insider and I have seen image files from both systems unlike most people here.

[AlanG]

http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-26D2E60E/jenoptik/hs.xsl/4582_6824.htm

[ken_tanaka]

i don´t know if any of you agree, but this is my view at this point.

 

if you´re a professional it means you have to earn more money than you invest.

most professionals rent or lease their equipment in order to do this

 

the point is that you break the rule if you spend more on a system than you get from or for it.

for a professional, is "better" to get some lenses, even if they´re highly priced, because it´s an investment for the future, and a lower priced, upgradable body.

 

what makes no sense is to pay such much money for a body, that, remember, is not going to be upgradable (at least the sensor) as far as we know.

if you lease it, that is a way to do it, you´ll find yourself paying a leasing for a 18K/22K€ body (or two, then double the basis) during, let´s say, four years, and the next year ,bussines rules "suggest" to change for a new one (S3,S4.....)

 

most of you know that nowadays things have changed because of the economic "situation", and rates and fees have been lowered down a lot, so work is not "fluent" anymore.

 

if you´re a professional, you have to take much care of every step you take if you´re willing to keep yourself in this business, and you can afford (maybe) some disadvantages of other "not-as-good" systems if they lead you to the "thing", wich is to keep working

 

of course this does not affects other "groups" of buyers.if they have the money, they will get the gift.

 

what is quite surprising is that leica always said the S2 was "aimed for professionals". maybe they didn´t mean photographers

 

 

p.s. if leica does not sell as much as they think (and i hope they sell), will the S system suffer the same end as R??

 

Thank you. Exactly correct. The S2 is NOT aimed at the majority of folks (hobbyists and enthusiasts) commenting on these boards. It's aimed at full-time commercial photographers, most of whom will lease or rent (by job) costly equipment such as this. It just makes better business sense to do so, rather than tie up scarce capital unless you're doing one hell of a lot of business with this camera.

 

But that's precisely why I commented much earlier that Leica must first sell the big urban rental and leasing shops in NY, LA, Chicago, London, etc. That's not going to be easy. These are not broad-minded folks these days. They're only going to sink THEIR capital into gear they can move easily and gear that's reliable. Certainly there will be early interest in short rentals of the S2 as customers take it for test drives. But after the first few months how often will these customers take the S2 over other choices?

 

PhaseOne (not Hassy) owns the mf digital world today due largely to its performance, reliability, flexibility. Even if the S2 can be competitive in the first two attributes it will be at a disadvantage on the third: flexibility. Unlike a PhaseOne back, the S2 requires hard-wired decisions regarding camera and lenses. The entire deal gets queered if any one component is a stinker or is not appropriate for a job.

 

Price aside, I believe that this will be the Achilles heel of the S2 in the commercial world. Photographers today need flexibility. (As an aside, this is also why PhaseOne is eating Hasselblad's breakfast, lunch, and dinner after Hassy decided to close its system.)

Edited July 30, 2009 by ken_tanaka

[marknorton]

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Well, I'm going to start with a handgrip and spare charger and move on from there, depending on how I get on with it...

[jonoslack]

Well, I'm going to start with a handgrip and spare charger and move on from there, depending on how I get on with it...

 

I was considering a lens cap . . . . I bet they have nice lens caps:)

[plasticman]

Well, I'm going to start with a handgrip and spare charger and move on from there, depending on how I get on with it...

 

Crikey Mark - we're relying on you to take this thing apart! Buy two.

[jaapv]

Because I am an Insider and I have seen image files from both systems unlike most people here.

Umm- no provenance, no website, no nothing?

[marknorton]

Crikey Mark - we're relying on you to take this thing apart! Buy two.

 

I expect they've made it Mark Norton-proof to prevent an "Anatomy of the Leica S2" thread...

[andybarton]

Because I am an Insider and I have seen image files from both systems unlike most people here.

 

In which case you will be under a NDA.

[stephengilbert]

"Umm- no provenance, no website, no nothing?"

 

Jaap, it's the internets; we don't need evidence. That's why Leica have chosen to keep their files secret for now.

 

FWIW, I don't think the prices are surprising. I think the "shock" here is based on all the dreamland posts of the past months about Leica pricing the S2 in a way that will provide quick market penetration. Have they ever done that? Recently, it appears their pricing model is to set high prices and to offer "rebates" if things don't sell.

 

Steve

Edited July 30, 2009 by stephengilbert

[stephengilbert]

"Mark Norton-proof?"

 

Don't you own a hammer and chisel?

[dewittehd]

Wilson,

 

I have to agree with Steve. You need to compare Apples with Apples.

The 31MP doesn't even come close to the resolution and image quality of the 37.5MP S2. Add the poor quality of the japanese made lenses that need to be corrected in post processing and you have two systems that do not play in the same league.

 

On a general note:

Everybody here will have to re-evaluate their negative comments once Leica publishes specs and performance proofs. It was not very clever to release the pricing without that being available, I have to admit.

 

I can understand that people need to justify why they are holding on to their Phase and Hassi systems but that doesn't mean that there is no market for the S2 or that the pricing isn't competitive because most people that comment here have never even seen the camera or talked to the people that developed it.

 

I was at photokina 2008 when it was launched and I was at PMA 2009 when the prototypes where presented. The Pros where in awe because the system is so much more compact, faster, easier to use than anything they had worked with.

 

A Leica Insider

 

 

Daydreamer..................................

Jean

[locator]

again, this is a price matter, not a quality problem.

we all know or expect S system to be the best, but it does not make the others be bad or "good enough" for a job

 

you can deliver newspapers in a ferrari, but the boss is going to pay you the same if you are using a van.

 

nowadays (again) clients need the work to be done. they do not pay an extra for your equipment.

they do the same in the "rental fees" on the budgets, so market rules.

so (again) body is TOO pricey.

[haribo]

The Austrian tv-station ORF quoted a Leica-spokesman that additional information about the S-System will be presented over the next few days.

 

"Sorry they are not even reasonable close in price. Way beyond any daydreamer pricing."

 

It's priced like a Phase One or Hasselblad. The retail price for the P40+-back in Germany is about as much as for the S2-body (I only found 25k$-US-Kit-price, where does 21,5k$ come from?).

 

 

FYI, here's the price point from a Canadian store most pros buy from (for reference go to vistek.ca).

Their official website listing is as follows (when you get a personal quote, it will be slightly less):

P40+ Back Bundle with 645 Body, 80mm lens and 1 year warranty goes for CDN$23,095.00

 

Simply by going to xe.com for the current exchange rate this translates to US$ 21,340.33

 

Now bare in mind that A.) internet exchange rates are always higher than one gets at a brick and mortar financial institute, and B.) the price at an actual pro camera store in the US will most likely be even less than that.

 

 

Despite what all those "Leica Insiders" who are suddenly popping up here are saying, the S2 will be only superior in price to Phase or Hassy.

The S2 simply will be no competition to them and it will go into the history books as the best camera on paper that has never been used.

Edited July 30, 2009 by haribo

[Leica Insider]

Daydreamer..................................

Jean

 

a serious question: where you there? It was daytime but not a dream.

[Guest malland]

...The S2 is not competing against the Hassi HD3-II 31. The 31MP doesn't even come close to the resolution and image quality of the 37.5MP S2. Add the poor quality of the japanese made lenses that need to be corrected in post processing and you have two systems that do not play in the same league...

I am alway puzzled by these statements — articles of faith really — that the S2 is so much better than the existing competition, considering this camera is not yet out and whose detailed specs are not available. Similarly, the statement about "the poor quality of Japanese lenses" has nothing to do with reality, certainly not as a generalization.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[stephengilbert]

Leica Insider,

 

If you're going to make claims about the quality of the S2 files versus others, post a link to them. Otherwise, your statements are worth no more than a salesman's puffery.

 

SG