m10-r Utterly confused: used M10 or M10-R?

[aamwgm]

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Just now, Al Brown said:

If the pockets are shallower then one camera, the M10-R, is the right path to choose.

I wish I could test both. I've bonded with the M10 instantly, and I love its results. I just hope I don't get the 10R and regret it.

[Al Brown]

4 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I wish I could test both. I've bonded with the M10 instantly, and I love its results. I just hope I don't get the 10R and regret it.

Do not say I did not warn you... I eventually ended up owning both.

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[charlesphoto99]

10 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I wish I could test both. I've bonded with the M10 instantly, and I love its results. I just hope I don't get the 10R and regret it.

I shot about 50-100k images through my M10 and then traded it in for an M10-R (black paint model), which is, imo, the same but better. It's pretty much an M10-P with a different sensor. The sensor is slightly different in the color output, though with a few clicks in Lightroom, one would be hard pressed to tell the images I've shot with my M9, 10, and 10-R at base to mid iso's. Highlight recovery is certainly better with the R. 

[M10R]

10 hours ago, aamwgm said:

我喜歡盡可能避免後製。對我來說，它剝奪了攝影的自發性。然而，有些人可能會說，今天的後製處理就像過去的膠片沖洗一樣。但話又說回來，我是一名軟體工程師，考慮到我需要整天待在電腦前，我想盡可能避免因為嗜好而使用它。

我最近還看到了一個視頻，比較了 M10-P 和 M10-R 的顏色：並且考慮到 M10-P 具有與基礎 M10 相同的傳感器和相同的“顏色科學”。也就是說，這個截圖：

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左邊是 M10-P，天空的差異非常明顯。我很驚訝這一點沒有提前指出。左邊的圖像比 M10-R 的圖像更悅目。

也許 M10-R 圖像更“準確”，但我在這裡並不是真的追求準確性。不過，這兩張圖片看起來都很有衝擊力，但恕我直言，M10-P 的特色要多得多。

Please beware that not every M10 (or M10-R) produces same color. Besides, different lens affects color also.
P.S. To me, the M10-R has cleaner image (without magenta color cast).

[lencap]

Choosing the "right" camera is indeed a challenge, and regardless of which you pick it's likely that you'll have some degree of "buyer's remorse".  That's just the way it goes.

On the other hand, stepping back a bit may give some perspective.  My interest in photography extend to my early teen years, 60 years ago.  Back then dad's rangefinder was our only "real" camera.  He enjoyed developing B/W film, a hobby which he eventually gave up as raising four kids took all the available time he had, especially after working two jobs.

When he developed the negatives I was always amazed as I watched them produce an image as  I watched.  I never forgot that.  When he took the negatives to the Photography store I sometimes was allowed to watch them take the negatives and print photos.  It was magical.  That process, from pressing the shutter to holding a real picture often took well over a week, often much longer.  When I did look at the pictures I didn't put much attention on what we obsess about now - resolution, sharpness, bokeh and all the rest.  It was usually an image of a family member, and when I looked at it the FEELING of the image is what I remember, not the TECHNICAL quality of it.

When dad moved to color the effect was even more magical.  No longer could he develop the color negatives, so the entire event shifted from "do it yourself" to "send it to the lab".  And THAT is what changed photography for me.  No more quiet time with dad in the darkroom, no more learning about chemistry and how to agitate the developing tray.  In short, no more magic.  The pictures may have been far more stunning than the black and white shots from dad, but the gain in technical excellence and potential vibrancy wasn't enough to offset the "mystique" of photography.  

To this day, despite all the gear I've owned, I too resent having to now BE the LAB.  I don't send my digital files to the lab and magically have 8x10 color photos sent back.  I have to learn LightRoom or Capture One, or something else, and learn how to do everything myself.  As the saying goes, "I don't want to know how to make a watch, I just want to know what time it is!"  

And that's how I feel about today's digital world.  Yes, it's great to have exceptional technical tools, but if you don't know how to use them, or even more to the point, don't want to spend hundreds of hours learning how to use them and getting the results you want, you have little choice.  So what good is the mega-pixel race if you can't really use the resolution of ANY modern digital camera.  My 27" iMac has a 5K resolution, 5120x2880 resolution, a bit less than 15MP.  Please tell me, where can I view a 24MP image in native resolution, let alone 40, 60 or the yet to come 100MP files?  If I can't see it natively, what is the point?

And that goes back to my initial comments.  I enjoy photography as a HOBBY, not a PROFESSION.  I want to enjoy the process, not obsess over technical aspects of it.

So, if the M10 rings your bell, good for you.  But before deciding ask a simple question: "What do I want from photography?"  Sounds to me that you want to have an ENJOYABLE hobby, with the capability to create interesting images.  As others have pointed out the 24MP M10 does that wonderfully.  If the technical aspects are equally interesting, perhaps the 40MP sensors are of interest.  For me, 24MP is all I need, and I suspect that for many that provides a good balance between technical quality and obsessing over details that are almost never visible in an actual photograph, or on most displays unless enlarged to extreme levels.

Go take picture, and enjoy the "zen" of photography.

[Smudgerer]

6 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Do not say I did not warn you... I eventually ended up owning both.

Agreed. My M10-R has just disappeared into the Leica Warranty Service swamp at Wetzlar for God knows how long it's going to take to fix a miss-behaving LCD so I have picked up a good condition M10-P as a "reserve" to fill the absence of the R............I'm sure that I will end up keeping both when the M10-R returns, if I live long enough.

[250swb]

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On 1/8/2024 at 7:23 AM, aamwgm said:

 

I’ve also heard that the images coming from an M10-R aren’t as punchy and need more work in post. Post processing is something I’d like to avoid, for me that defeats the purpose. I like SOOC images from the M10.

 

Buy a digital P&S instead, SOOC is an excuse not to do the nuts and bolts of photography which is what an expensive camera requires to get the best out of it, and especially a camera that already has few user crutches to lean on.

[Pekoni]

11 hours ago, lencap said:

Choosing the "right" camera is indeed a challenge, and regardless of which you pick it's likely that you'll have some degree of "buyer's remorse".  That's just the way it goes.

On the other hand, stepping back a bit may give some perspective.  My interest in photography extend to my early teen years, 60 years ago.  Back then dad's rangefinder was our only "real" camera.  He enjoyed developing B/W film, a hobby which he eventually gave up as raising four kids took all the available time he had, especially after working two jobs.

When he developed the negatives I was always amazed as I watched them produce an image as  I watched.  I never forgot that.  When he took the negatives to the Photography store I sometimes was allowed to watch them take the negatives and print photos.  It was magical.  That process, from pressing the shutter to holding a real picture often took well over a week, often much longer.  When I did look at the pictures I didn't put much attention on what we obsess about now - resolution, sharpness, bokeh and all the rest.  It was usually an image of a family member, and when I looked at it the FEELING of the image is what I remember, not the TECHNICAL quality of it.

When dad moved to color the effect was even more magical.  No longer could he develop the color negatives, so the entire event shifted from "do it yourself" to "send it to the lab".  And THAT is what changed photography for me.  No more quiet time with dad in the darkroom, no more learning about chemistry and how to agitate the developing tray.  In short, no more magic.  The pictures may have been far more stunning than the black and white shots from dad, but the gain in technical excellence and potential vibrancy wasn't enough to offset the "mystique" of photography.  

To this day, despite all the gear I've owned, I too resent having to now BE the LAB.  I don't send my digital files to the lab and magically have 8x10 color photos sent back.  I have to learn LightRoom or Capture One, or something else, and learn how to do everything myself.  As the saying goes, "I don't want to know how to make a watch, I just want to know what time it is!"  

And that's how I feel about today's digital world.  Yes, it's great to have exceptional technical tools, but if you don't know how to use them, or even more to the point, don't want to spend hundreds of hours learning how to use them and getting the results you want, you have little choice.  So what good is the mega-pixel race if you can't really use the resolution of ANY modern digital camera.  My 27" iMac has a 5K resolution, 5120x2880 resolution, a bit less than 15MP.  Please tell me, where can I view a 24MP image in native resolution, let alone 40, 60 or the yet to come 100MP files?  If I can't see it natively, what is the point?

And that goes back to my initial comments.  I enjoy photography as a HOBBY, not a PROFESSION.  I want to enjoy the process, not obsess over technical aspects of it.

So, if the M10 rings your bell, good for you.  But before deciding ask a simple question: "What do I want from photography?"  Sounds to me that you want to have an ENJOYABLE hobby, with the capability to create interesting images.  As others have pointed out the 24MP M10 does that wonderfully.  If the technical aspects are equally interesting, perhaps the 40MP sensors are of interest.  For me, 24MP is all I need, and I suspect that for many that provides a good balance between technical quality and obsessing over details that are almost never visible in an actual photograph, or on most displays unless enlarged to extreme levels.

Go take picture, and enjoy the "zen" of photography.

I enjoyed that read so much, thanks! I own the M10 and love it. Looking at pictures on Flickr I see beautiful pictures are shot with it, as with the Pentax KD10 I once used.

[aamwgm]

10 hours ago, 250swb said:

Buy a digital P&S instead, SOOC is an excuse not to do the nuts and bolts of photography which is what an expensive camera requires to get the best out of it, and especially a camera that already has few user crutches to lean on.

Thanks but no thanks. I wouldn't be shelling this kind of money if I'd have been content with a P&S. And at the risk of starting a flame war: I also don't agree with your "nuts and bolts" idea of photography at all. If the nuts and bolts of photography are sitting on some image editing software and tinkering away until you get the "look", then perhaps what I consider a hobby is not photography at all, but making images just with my camera (and enjoying that experience, which the M10 provides in spades, like all Leica rangefinders), in that moment, and being done with it.

11 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Agreed. My M10-R has just disappeared into the Leica Warranty Service swamp at Wetzlar for God knows how long it's going to take to fix a miss-behaving LCD so I have picked up a good condition M10-P as a "reserve" to fill the absence of the R............I'm sure that I will end up keeping both when the M10-R returns, if I live long enough.

I've been hearing terrible things about Leica after-sales service: extremely long turnaround times, poor workmanship etc. (especially with the M11), which makes me want to risk buying an M10-R even less. I hope Leica get their act together.

11 hours ago, lencap said:

Choosing the "right" camera is indeed a challenge, and regardless of which you pick it's likely that you'll have some degree of "buyer's remorse".  That's just the way it goes.

On the other hand, stepping back a bit may give some perspective.  My interest in photography extend to my early teen years, 60 years ago.  Back then dad's rangefinder was our only "real" camera.  He enjoyed developing B/W film, a hobby which he eventually gave up as raising four kids took all the available time he had, especially after working two jobs.

When he developed the negatives I was always amazed as I watched them produce an image as  I watched.  I never forgot that.  When he took the negatives to the Photography store I sometimes was allowed to watch them take the negatives and print photos.  It was magical.  That process, from pressing the shutter to holding a real picture often took well over a week, often much longer.  When I did look at the pictures I didn't put much attention on what we obsess about now - resolution, sharpness, bokeh and all the rest.  It was usually an image of a family member, and when I looked at it the FEELING of the image is what I remember, not the TECHNICAL quality of it.

When dad moved to color the effect was even more magical.  No longer could he develop the color negatives, so the entire event shifted from "do it yourself" to "send it to the lab".  And THAT is what changed photography for me.  No more quiet time with dad in the darkroom, no more learning about chemistry and how to agitate the developing tray.  In short, no more magic.  The pictures may have been far more stunning than the black and white shots from dad, but the gain in technical excellence and potential vibrancy wasn't enough to offset the "mystique" of photography.  

To this day, despite all the gear I've owned, I too resent having to now BE the LAB.  I don't send my digital files to the lab and magically have 8x10 color photos sent back.  I have to learn LightRoom or Capture One, or something else, and learn how to do everything myself.  As the saying goes, "I don't want to know how to make a watch, I just want to know what time it is!"  

And that's how I feel about today's digital world.  Yes, it's great to have exceptional technical tools, but if you don't know how to use them, or even more to the point, don't want to spend hundreds of hours learning how to use them and getting the results you want, you have little choice.  So what good is the mega-pixel race if you can't really use the resolution of ANY modern digital camera.  My 27" iMac has a 5K resolution, 5120x2880 resolution, a bit less than 15MP.  Please tell me, where can I view a 24MP image in native resolution, let alone 40, 60 or the yet to come 100MP files?  If I can't see it natively, what is the point?

And that goes back to my initial comments.  I enjoy photography as a HOBBY, not a PROFESSION.  I want to enjoy the process, not obsess over technical aspects of it.

So, if the M10 rings your bell, good for you.  But before deciding ask a simple question: "What do I want from photography?"  Sounds to me that you want to have an ENJOYABLE hobby, with the capability to create interesting images.  As others have pointed out the 24MP M10 does that wonderfully.  If the technical aspects are equally interesting, perhaps the 40MP sensors are of interest.  For me, 24MP is all I need, and I suspect that for many that provides a good balance between technical quality and obsessing over details that are almost never visible in an actual photograph, or on most displays unless enlarged to extreme levels.

Go take picture, and enjoy the "zen" of photography.

I loved reading your post. Thank you very, very much for taking the time to write down your thoughts. The "zen" of photography is what I've been looking for, and that has brought me to Leica (not the "zen" of editing, which a fellow poster suggested). And the M10 gets me pretty close to that without having to spend time on a screen editing photos.

[costa43]

1 hour ago, aamwgm said:

Thanks but no thanks. I wouldn't be shelling this kind of money if I'd have been content with a P&S. And at the risk of starting a flame war: I also don't agree with your "nuts and bolts" idea of photography at all. If the nuts and bolts of photography are sitting on some image editing software and tinkering away until you get the "look", then perhaps what I consider a hobby is not photography at all, but making images just with my camera (and enjoying that experience, which the M10 provides in spades, like all Leica rangefinders), in that moment, and being done with it.

I've been hearing terrible things about Leica after-sales service: extremely long turnaround times, poor workmanship etc. (especially with the M11), which makes me want to risk buying an M10-R even less. I hope Leica get their act together.

I loved reading your post. Thank you very, very much for taking the time to write down your thoughts. The "zen" of photography is what I've been looking for, and that has brought me to Leica (not the "zen" of editing, which a fellow poster suggested). And the M10 gets me pretty close to that without having to spend time on a screen editing photos.

 You seem really happy with the m10 and with good reason, it is a fine camera. If you were to upgrade, maybe an m10p would work out better. You could retain the same sensor you enjoy but benefit from the shutter/touchscreen/LPC you gain.  The R will give you nothing over the regular m10/p that seems important to you and it could potentially disappoint you based on your clear preference for the m10 files prior to editing.  To be honest, if it were me, I'd not bother scratching the itch at all and go for a nice shiny new lens instead.

[aamwgm]

21 minutes ago, costa43 said:

 You seem really happy with the m10 and with good reason, it is a fine camera. If you were to upgrade, maybe an m10p would work out better. You could retain the same sensor you enjoy but benefit from the shutter/touchscreen/LPC you gain.  The R will give you nothing over the regular m10/p that seems important to you and it could potentially disappoint you based on your clear preference for the m10 files prior to editing.  To be honest, if it were me, I'd not bother scratching the itch at all and go for a nice shiny new lens instead.

I am 🙂 .

And I did go for the Voigtländer Nokton 35mm 1.4 M.C. VM II, which just arrived today. I'm pretty happy with the results, but the lens does seem a tad soft wide open. It sharpens up by f2, but it still shows some softness (for my liking).

I'll need to make do with it until I can afford the fabled summilux.

Edited January 10 by aamwgm

[Stuart Richardson]

In my experience it is really rare to hit it off completely with a camera, so if you have done that with the M10 and whatever processor you are using, you should think hard before changing it. It is true too, however, that there is no true "straight out of camera". The unprocessed raw files look dull and green. The SOOC that you are looking at is more of a dialogue between Leica and the raw processor, and all along the way choices are being made for you by everyone from the sensor manufacturer to Leica's software team to the software team at whatever raw processor you use. There is no authoritative "correct" version. That said, SOOC is important, and if you find the results and synergy you like, then it is probably worth sticking with it!

(the green image is what the unprocessed raw image might look like) https://pixelcraft.photo.blog/2019/12/18/the-bayer-filter/

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Edited January 10 by Stuart Richardson

[costa43]

11 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I am 🙂 .

And I did go for the Voigtländer Nokton 35mm 1.4 M.C. VM II, which just arrived today. I'm pretty happy with the results, but the lens does seem a tad soft wide open. It sharpens up by f2, but it still shows some softness (for my liking).

I'll need to make do with it until I can afford the fabled summilux.

'I'll need to make do with it until I can afford the fabled summilux.'

By not paying an M10r tax and sticking with the m10, that will be a lot sooner now 😀

[Adam Bonn]

FWIW I’ve had both 10 and R and I prefer the R (although I’m not fussed about the 40px)

Colours are subjective (plus I creatively profile my cameras anyway) but I find the R has a preferable tonality. The 10 has quite a strong native (to the sensor) shadow contrast and the highlight roll off can be ugly, here I find the R more natural.

I find the files nicer to work on in post, often needing very little work (if the exposure was correct at capture) yet also tangibly more malleable (if the exposure wasn’t correct at capture)

The real ISO 100 is very welcome to me (10/D/P iso100 is a pull setting)

However the R has more vignetting which can be annoying.

Of the ‘bells and whistles’ differences the newer quiet shutter is great, the double tap to zoom in playback is useful, using the menu with the touchscreen is nice enough (but really, not a lot of need to menu dive on a 10)

 I think that ultimately the entire 10 range is a mature product and none of them are bad cameras, you can’t really choose poorly 

Re Leica service.. I had a de-centred 50 lux ASPH repaired and CLA’d at Wetzlar and returned to me within 4 weeks for under 400€. You call all draw your own conclusions if that was too slow and/or too expensive (I was happy with those figures)

[PCPix]

 

2 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

not fussed about the 40px…

…highlight roll off can be ugly, here I find the R more natural.

This is why I prefer the -R to the original. The M10’s highlights were the only thing I didn’t like about the camera. The -R is better, and also with the quieter shutter, makes the M10-R my favourite digital M. 

Edited January 10 by PCPix

[gordec]

Recently sold my silver M10. Swear I was going to M11 after playing with it at Leica San Francisco. However, a great like-new deal on a M10-R popped up, so I bought it instead. It ended up being less than $1000 more to go from 10 to 10-R. 

Things I have noticed so far:

1. The shutter is quieter but it rarely felt significant in real life usage, but I do like it in the R.

2. Touch screen is a nice quality of life upgrade over the nontouch 10. 

3. Files and color science feels very similar.

4. R handles highlights better for sure and you can shoot ISO 100.

5. Battery is clearly worse on the R.

6. Your ability to nail focus feels the same. I don't feel like I'm getting more blurry pictures with my 35 FLE due to 40mp. I shoot at f1.4 all the time.

7. The iso dial is smoother to pull out compared to my M10. 

I think if it's less than $1k to upgrade, I'd do it. You also have a much newer hardware. My M10 was 2018. My M10R was built late 2021. 

[charlesphoto99]

Funny, I always forget my M10-R has a touch screen. I guess after so many years with M8/9/10 old habits (i.e. using scroll wheel to zoom/advance etc during playback) are hard to break. 

[aamwgm]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Funny, I always forget my M10-R has a touch screen. I guess after so many years with M8/9/10 old habits (i.e. using scroll wheel to zoom/advance etc during playback) are hard to break. 

I don't consider that a drawback, IMHO. I find myself chimping much less if it is harder. That has been, for me, the revelation of Leica rangefinders. Wear the camera, if you see a moment, pick it up, shoot, and be done with it.

[charlesphoto99]

2 minutes ago, aamwgm said:

I don't consider that a drawback, IMHO. I find myself chimping much less if it is harder. That has been, for me, the revelation of Leica rangefinders. Wear the camera, if you see a moment, pick it up, shoot, and be done with it.

Oh, I rarely if ever chimp in the 'moment' - that's a great way to lose shots. But in the downtime, it's often nice to review images and then rate the keepers/of interest with a star, which then gets transferred into Lightroom. 

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[aamwgm]

Just now, charlesphoto99 said:

Oh, I rarely if ever chimp in the 'moment' - that's a great way to lose shots. But in the downtime, it's often nice to review images and then rate the keepers/of interest with a star, which then gets transferred into Lightroom. 

Same here (although, I've been practising the rangefinder inside the house and chimping quite a bit to "check" if my focus was correct). I think for that sort of chimping (when not shooting), the M10's non-touch backscreen works out just fine for me.