First impressions comparing M11P and M10R

[jaapv]

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2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

But an immortal, omnipresent, permanent and perpetual one.

Now that made my day! Being immortal!

[Bernard M]

22 hours ago, jaapv said:

Rich dentists is an extremely small market…🥲

My daughter is a dentist, and she is not rich… Seems she is on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Perhaps she should go to the USA, where, apparently, all dentists are so rich that it became proverbial 😉.

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[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Yes, but if there were not those there would be no Leica...it is literally the entire business model. It's not to say that you have to be rich to own or use a Leica, only that they would not be able to sell enough of them new to have a company without rich photographers. Unless of course they completely changed their products...but that is another story.

I meant professional photographers. But we generally only buy what we need and/or can afford, and often make sacrifices in owning other things (like Porsches, etc) in order to buy into something like Leica. I'm sure there are outliers but imo it's the well heeled (insert profession here) that are able to afford the constant churn of new product Leica brings out.  Even Leica have pretty much admitted they are more of a luxury lifestyle company now than a product for actual day to day working photographers, and/or Leicas are secondary to their main gear. Of course that's in large part Leica's fault when one might have to wait five months to get a repair done on a brand new camera or lens. 

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, Bernard M said:

My daughter is a dentist, and she is not rich… Seems she is on the wrong side of the Atlantic. Perhaps she should go to the USA, where, apparently, all dentists are so rich that it became proverbial 😉.

It is not a general phenomenon. It is just the typical trolls trying to say that people who have other professional jobs that earn more than journalism or art can't also use their time to buy a nice camera and take pictures. I think they chose dentists because they assume that somehow they would not be good photographers? Who knows? It goes back decades here though...probably when being a dentist or doctor earned more in relation to the general public than they do now. I think a more modern troll would choose a tech bro or ceo as a more contemporary target.

[weatherproof]

5 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

I owned up to that gaffe a few posts up from here, in a post that begins with the word "Whoops".

[...]

And, I salute Leica for the subsequent implementation in which light is reflected off the shutter blades, such as in our digital M bodies. As I said in the post above, it's kind of like having a little gray card with you all the time. 

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm not a Leica expert and thought I missed something because I couldn't follow the thread that well.

[Al Brown]

39 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It is just the typical trolls trying to say that people who have other professional jobs that earn more than journalism or art can't also use their time to buy a nice camera and take pictures. I think they chose dentists because they assume that somehow they would not be good photographers?

The "rich dentists buying Leicas" has been a joke moniker going on for more than 40+ years. No need to explain it to anyone, it is as proverbial as happy motorcycle drivers having flies in theri teeth.

[jaapv]

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Still, it doesn’t sit well with the average dentist who is in general non-rich. There are plenty of monikers from 40 years ago that don’t go down well nowadays. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

... and thank goodness for that!

Such monikers are just another way to display or profess indifference to important variations within a assumed-to-be-homoginous sample group. 

It's a trait you want your own political consultants to root out, and those of your opponent to continue to indulge in....

Just wait & see.....

[Bernard M]

55 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Still, it doesn’t sit well with the average dentist who is in general non-rich. There are plenty of monikers from 40 years ago that don’t go down well nowadays. 

And that’s why my far-less-than-forty-years-old-dentist-daughter has a Canon EOS XXX with a consumer zoom, and has zero interest in Leica M or Q with APO FLE something… 😇.

[Derbyshire Man]

2 hours ago, Bernard M said:

And that’s why my far-less-than-forty-years-old-dentist-daughter has a Canon EOS XXX with a consumer zoom, and has zero interest in Leica M or Q with APO FLE something… 😇.

So far!

[jaapv]

Medical practitioners have a normed income over here, based on the average time for each treatment, which is priced accordingly. Prices are fixed by the health authority. The average dental income norm works out to  7400 Euro a month before taxes with an interval between 3200 to 11500.  Try and get rich on that.

It is illegal to charge more than the fixed maximum rate. 

[Bernard M]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Medical practitioners have a normed income over here, based on the average time for each treatment, which is priced accordingly. Prices are fixed by the health authority. The average dental income norm works out to  7400 Euro a month before taxes with an interval between 3200 to 11500.  Try and get rich on that.

It is illegal to charge more than the fixed maximum rate. 

Income per month is not a fair information, especially when it’s used as a basis for comparison. Income per year is better, as medical practitioners (and others too) are not paid when they have holidays. As a consequence, a 7400€ per month is an income of 81400€ a year of 11 months, which, in turn, is equivalent to 6260€ a month for a normal worker paid over 12 months plus a bonus of approx. one month. Everybody will think that 7400 is better than 6260, but in fact it is the same.

But we are very far from M10 and M11, sorry…

[jaapv]

Yes, let's head back to cameras...  One last thing, this is an official norm income which takes things like holidays and 13th month etc. into account.

Back to Leica...

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, weatherproof said:

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm not a Leica expert and thought I missed something because I couldn't follow the thread that well.

This measuring off the shutter blades is a historical necessity. Because of the technological restrictions on the M5 and CL,  the M6 replaced the TTL measuring system  (swinging arm with sensor) with measuring off the film during exposure with a pre-measurement off a white spot on the shutter curtain. Revolutionary at the time. With the M8 that was not possible any more as the sensor reflected totally different from film, so they reduced it to measuring off the shutter blades.

[jakontil]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:49 PM, Al Brown said:

I shoot a LOT with my fancy, pretty M10-R BP camera. Clocked almost 60K actuations with it in 2 years. All my clients pay me. I agree production value is important, I too have been showing up on sets with a big rig and huge d̶i̶c̶k̶ lens in my hand and adding some strobes and lights with just modelling lights switched on to impress the client, but I have YET TO SEE A CLIENT who would say how many megapixels my camera should have. Never ever (I am a pro since 1998, shooting digital since 2003). All clients say just use your "best" or "max" settings. That's it.
I agree the M11-P is the best Leica in the known universe and Beverly Hills. No plans for it though, got the X2D instead.

same route, that's a beast, ur clients ask how many pixels it got?

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, jakontil said:

same route, that's a beast, ur clients ask how many pixels it got?

No, they are too speechless when I tell them it is Chinese owned now.

[tom0511]

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Edited January 8 by tom0511