Jewl Posted August 2, 2022 Author Share #21 Posted August 2, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 33 Minuten schrieb Photoworks: I had it on my M10P as it turns out the sensor needed calibration. the lens was fine. Seems so yes, as my Voigtlaender behaves similarly! Same focus issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 2, 2022 Posted August 2, 2022 Hi Jewl, Take a look here M11 + 35mm Summilux FLE - wide open (f1.4) + infinity focus - Expectation on focus point. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SrMi Posted August 2, 2022 Share #22 Posted August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Photoworks said: I had it on my M10P as it turns out the sensor needed calibration. the lens was fine. How do you calibrate a sensor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted August 2, 2022 Share #23 Posted August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, SrMi said: How do you calibrate a sensor? you send it in to Leica , the service center in NJ did the M10-P Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 2, 2022 Share #24 Posted August 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, Photoworks said: you send it in to Leica , the service center in NJ did the M10-P He’s telling you that they calibrate the RF, not the sensor. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted August 2, 2022 Share #25 Posted August 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, Jeff S said: He’s telling you that they calibrate the RF, not the sensor. Jeff No, why are you confusing people. the sensor position need to be calibrated Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 2, 2022 Share #26 Posted August 2, 2022 1 minute ago, Photoworks said: No, why are you confusing people. the sensor position need to be calibrated Happens rarely. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted August 2, 2022 Share #27 Posted August 2, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 minutes ago, Photoworks said: No, why are you confusing people. the sensor position need to be calibrated I have never heard that you can or need to do that. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 2, 2022 Share #28 Posted August 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, Photoworks said: No, why are you confusing people. the sensor position need to be calibrated If sensor out if alignment (rare), more likely to have left/right side blurring. And more likely to be addressed in Germany, not NJ. Jeff 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted August 2, 2022 Share #29 Posted August 2, 2022 I had the same issue that Jewl had. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! the 35 FLE at 1.4 was not focusing at infinity even the lens was turned to infinity. I had send in the lens to check and it came back the same. it turn out the Sensor of the camera needed to be adjusted in place. Leica NJ did it in a few days, no big deal and I came back perfect and never had the issue again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! the 35 FLE at 1.4 was not focusing at infinity even the lens was turned to infinity. I had send in the lens to check and it came back the same. it turn out the Sensor of the camera needed to be adjusted in place. Leica NJ did it in a few days, no big deal and I came back perfect and never had the issue again. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/335096-m11-35mm-summilux-fle-wide-open-f14-infinity-focus-expectation-on-focus-point/?do=findComment&comment=4481523'>More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 2, 2022 Share #30 Posted August 2, 2022 Did you have the same issue when using live view? Similar focusing issues come up frequently here, and many solve them by DIY. They adjust the RF, not the sensor.🤪 Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted August 2, 2022 Share #31 Posted August 2, 2022 1 minute ago, Jeff S said: Did you have the same issue when using live view? Similar focusing issues come up frequently here, and many solve them by DIY. They adjust the RF, not the sensor.🤪 Jeff not sure I should even bother answering this. but I am sure you want the last word on it. does it really make any difference if you look true the camera or something else ? I was not looking true the camera to focus because I know it was off already. in this test that I did for the leica service people, I just turned the lens focus to infinity and set f-stop to 1.4, in the image there is infinity, and it should have been in focus. It is just when you loaded incorrectly film and focus was off because the plane of focus was not where the film was. I am sure your DIY does wonders, but it won't fix this problem. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted August 2, 2022 Share #32 Posted August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Photoworks said: I had the same issue that Jewl had. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! the 35 FLE at 1.4 was not focusing at infinity even the lens was turned to infinity. I had send in the lens to check and it came back the same. it turn out the Sensor of the camera needed to be adjusted in place. Leica NJ did it in a few days, no big deal and I came back perfect and never had the issue again. Did you see the same issue with other lenses or is FLE primary lens? I am another that had this issue with the M11 and FLE. The explanation I received from NJ is that the DOF is seemingly smaller at high resolution with M11 and that the FLE is typically calibrated slightly forward so that as you stop down the focus doesn’t end up completely behind the subject. I didn’t see this with the M10M and didn’t buy the response so I’ve just been stopping down at infinity. Maybe I’ll send again to NJ and ask to check the sensor. I don’t notice this with 28mm on the M11 and I use 50s on M10M most of the time but should have tested the 50 on M11 to see if I could reproduce issue. May check tonight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewl Posted August 2, 2022 Author Share #33 Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) vor 2 Stunden schrieb dkmoore: Did you see the same issue with other lenses or is FLE primary lens? I am another that had this issue with the M11 and FLE. The explanation I received from NJ is that the DOF is seemingly smaller at high resolution with M11 and that the FLE is typically calibrated slightly forward so that as you stop down the focus doesn’t end up completely behind the subject. I didn’t see this with the M10M and didn’t buy the response so I’ve just been stopping down at infinity. Maybe I’ll send again to NJ and ask to check the sensor. I don’t notice this with 28mm on the M11 and I use 50s on M10M most of the time but should have tested the 50 on M11 to see if I could reproduce issue. May check tonight. Mentioned this above a couple of times, my Voigtlaender 35 1.4 behaves the same way! So must be the body! did the same tests with the smallest resolution of 18mp and had the same results! And to be very honest, if this is a „works as designed“ thing (let‘s see what Leica says) I will get rid of the M11 or maybe Leica at all! Edited August 2, 2022 by Jewl Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted August 2, 2022 Share #34 Posted August 2, 2022 It's not a sensor alignment. Not with this issue. It's *likely* a simple RF alignment issue rather than the lens if multiple lenses show it. On any M lens infinity is a hard stop. You don't need the RF or live view. Turn the lens to the hard stop. That's where infinity is. That should have infinity in focus. If it does. It's the body. If it doesn't, it's the lenses. It's not like an AF lens that can focus past infinity. If the RF is out at the hard stop of the lens and the infinity point is sharp it's likely the body that's out. Also make sure you do the same test at mid distances to make sure it's the RF wheel. If the RF doesn't give sharp shots at either mis or infinity it's a simple adjustment. Either send it away (with lens preferably) for a month or do it yourself in 20 minutes with a 2mm allen key. If the RF is out it'll be out at all distances. If close/mid is perfect and infinity is out it's a more complex throw adjustment and need to go to service. Don't guess where you think infinity should be. Use something FAR away. Like the moon or a headland that's a km or more into the distance. Just don't mistake haze for softness. If you find yourself thinking a distance *should* be far enough for infinity it probably isn't. Gordon 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted August 2, 2022 Share #35 Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) All of the following have to be correctly calibrated - i.e. positioned correctly relative to one another during the assembly of the camera and the lens. - The sensor surface - The front surface of the lens mount - The rangefinder (generally the roller cam surface that contacts the lens, but also the levers that connect the roller to the moving prisms in the camera with angular movement.) - The lens's focusing cam - the brass ring inside the back of the lens that moves in and out with focusing to move the camera roller. Independently of the glass. - The glass within the lens, relative to the lens mounting surface and cam. - The moving parts within the lens structure, if there are any (floating element - FLE). ................. Discounting any separate movement of the FLE group, a 35mm lens moves about 2.5mm forward to focus from infinity (or for the sake of argument, 1km = 1000000mm) to 700mm (0.7m). Roughly speaking (since focus does not track linearly), that means the calibration precision in the RF/actual lens/actual sensor positioning has to be on the order of 2.5mm/930000, or 0.0000027mm. That is for "perfect focus" with an ideal lens of infinite aperture = zero DOF. With a real aperture, even f/1.4, and assuming a misfocus of 1m at 1km won't be noticed even at 60 Mpixels, one can probably knock out 4 of the zeroes, but that still means a required total precision in the placement of all the parts, of about 0.027 (1/37th) mm. (The link below mentions a close non-metric equivalent = 0.001"). Given that the sensor is likely mounted to the CB - and the CB is what is actually mounted to the inside of the camera - then yes, Leica and its suppliers no doubt individually shim the sensor and CB mountings and lens flange in each body during assembly, to make sure the sensor is positioned to within 0.027mm± of the virtual focal plane (28.80mm behind the lens/camera flange). Leica uses laser interferometery to measure that sensor location precision. But anyone can have a bad day... But all the other connected parts also need that precision - so it may or may not be the sensor itself. Gordon is quite right that it can be a problem with any of the other "moving parts." And user tests, as he describes, can eliminate certain possibilities one by one. Edited August 2, 2022 by adan 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 3, 2022 Share #36 Posted August 3, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, adan said: All of the following have to be correctly calibrated - i.e. positioned correctly relative to one another during the assembly of the camera and the lens. - The sensor surface - The front surface of the lens mount - The rangefinder (generally the roller cam surface that contacts the lens, but also the levers that connect the roller to the moving prisms in the camera with angular movement.) - The lens's focusing cam - the brass ring inside the back of the lens that moves in and out with focusing to move the camera roller. Independently of the glass. - The glass within the lens, relative to the lens mounting surface and cam. - The moving parts within the lens structure, if there are any (floating element - FLE). ................. Discounting any separate movement of the FLE group, a 35mm lens moves about 2.5mm forward to focus from infinity (or for the sake of argument, 1km = 1000000mm) to 700mm (0.7m). Roughly speaking (since focus does not track linearly), that means the calibration precision in the RF/actual lens/actual sensor positioning has to be on the order of 2.5mm/930000, or 0.0000027mm. That is for "perfect focus" with an ideal lens of infinite aperture = zero DOF. With a real aperture, even f/1.4, and assuming a misfocus of 1m at 1km won't be noticed even at 60 Mpixels, one can probably knock out 4 of the zeroes, but that still means a required total precision in the placement of all the parts, of about 0.027 (1/37th) mm. (The link below mentions a close non-metric equivalent = 0.001"). Given that the sensor is likely mounted to the CB - and the CB is what is actually mounted to the inside of the camera - then yes, Leica and its suppliers no doubt individually shim the sensor and CB mountings and lens flange in each body during assembly, to make sure the sensor is positioned to within 0.027mm± of the virtual focal plane (28.80mm behind the lens/camera flange). Leica uses laser interferometery to measure that sensor location precision. But anyone can have a bad day... But all the other connected parts also need that precision - so it may or may not be the sensor itself. Gordon is quite right that it can be a problem with any of the other "moving parts." And user tests, as he describes, can eliminate certain possibilities one by one. Of course every part matters. But it’s far, far less likely to have been a misaligned sensor. And if it were, it would have been an absolute miracle for Leica NJ to have fixed it perfectly in a few days as described by Photoworks. I don’t know if NJ Service is cleaning sensors that fast lately, let alone realigning them. Jeff Edited August 3, 2022 by Jeff S 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewl Posted August 3, 2022 Author Share #37 Posted August 3, 2022 Btw. - based on the pictures I have sent to Leica (comparison picture of the roofs from above), they admitted that the recent service / calibration failed and I need to hand it in again. Will most likely drive it to Wetzlar Friday morning so hopefully, the issue is fixed by the weekend! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieCheddar Posted August 3, 2022 Share #38 Posted August 3, 2022 Please keep us update, Jewl. Thanks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 3, 2022 Share #39 Posted August 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Jewl said: Will most likely drive it to Wetzlar Friday morning so hopefully, the issue is fixed by the weekend! To wait is permitted, to hope is sweet « Il est permis d'attendre, il est doux d'espérer » (Bizet, Carmen) Carmen_il_est_permis.mp3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewl Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share #40 Posted August 8, 2022 (edited) Hello again, just a quick update, it seems they made it work again (left is the after version ;-)): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! As usual, please find the full image without compression here. Slowly but surely... Cheers, Julian Edited August 8, 2022 by Jewl 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! As usual, please find the full image without compression here. Slowly but surely... Cheers, Julian ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/335096-m11-35mm-summilux-fle-wide-open-f14-infinity-focus-expectation-on-focus-point/?do=findComment&comment=4485325'>More sharing options...
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